When to fold Jacks?

[freeringo]

Should I have seen another card for 200 or did I make the right lay down?

[navuta]

Should I have seen another card for 200 or did I make the right lay down?

For my option u make the right fold.
He would might have an ace, and your draw odds were lesse than 4% ( at least i think it is)
Nice hand,!

[Sassy12U]

I think you made the right fold.
I think it may depend a little bit on what you would have planned to do
on the river. If you were to check, I'm sure he would have bet. I think your
action on the flop induced a bet by him whether he had it or not but you
have to wonder what he would be calling 350 pre-flop with.

[freeringo]

I think you made the right fold.
I think it may depend a little bit on what you would have planned to do
on the river. If you were to check, I'm sure he would have bet. I think your
action on the flop induced a bet by him whether he had it or not but you
have to wonder what he would be calling 350 pre-flop with.

I put him on 99 or KK

[Sassy12U]

Yea I was kind of thinking that he got lucky on the turn and wanted
to get action out of you by making a value bet, hoping you would raise
or just call.

You controlled what you could to the best of your ability. You could have made
a bet on the flop but you also looked like you could have been checking your Ace and waiting for him to play back into you.

[Pokerkitty6]

JJ scares me to death. I think I have lost more on those than win. Everytime I think about my pocket JJ's I have flashbacks to the last time I had them. Good fold for me usually.

[eejit101]

Bet the flop for 550. If he calls, check the turn, and move from there.

[eejit101]

Lol, this is a forum game. Not this one, but still.....

Raise to 3.5x BB is fine, he calls you, range is probably 22+, QTs+ e.t.c

Check/Check on the flop. I reckon he has some kind of 1010 hand here. Maybe JQ.

Check/Bet on the flop..


The first thing i want to do is rofl @ your read of KK or 99. KK or 99???? So not any other pair and he is betting as youve shown 0% interest in winning this pot??? Or maybe a gutshot and he is bluffing, and bluffing badly as i call with JJ here for 200.

So yeah you shuda bet the flop, and stop assigning people hands that are the nuts.

[CreamSoda]

JJ scares me to death. I think I have lost more on those than win. Everytime I think about my pocket JJ's I have flashbacks to the last time I had them. Good fold for me usually.

Youve probably lost more with them because youre scared of them!

In this particular hand I think OP made his own life very difficult by playing so passivly. The villian would be an idiot not to bluff that turn, but hes easily trapping.

Best way to play it against an amateur player imo is to simply bet the flop and fold to c/r or turn bet.

I really think even thinking about calling turn is very very bad. He obv could be bluffing, but all your doing is giving him chance to bluff you out of more chips on river.

Bonus tip: make your preflop raises smaller, 3.5x is never good. Open shove is much more profitable (for real) but I like 2.5x the best.

[eejit101]

That tip is bad. Raising 2-3 BB fromt here means if you get one other called your giving the blinds huge amount of equity to call with maringal hands preflop.

And also i disagree with calling behind on the turn. If you call you should slow down a river bet. If he bluffs againt hen great, if ouve got a read do whatever you would do. But calling this TINY turn bet (Which is 20% of the pot btw) is better than raising/folding

[CreamSoda]

That tip is bad. Raising 2-3 BB fromt here means if you get one other called your giving the blinds huge amount of equity to call with maringal hands preflop.

And also i disagree with calling behind on the turn. If you call you should slow down a river bet. If he bluffs againt hen great, if ouve got a read do whatever you would do. But calling this TINY turn bet (Which is 20% of the pot btw) is better than raising/folding

I have to disagree on both your arguments, although I do see where youre coming from.

Raising more than 3x preflop with less than 40 or 50 bbs (some will argue that you need even more) is a very common leak among both live and online players. I used to play poker online very seriously before I started grad school, and for years I took your side of this argument, even after hearing my more experienced friends tell me why it was wrong (there are also several pokerxfactor videos backing up my claim). The truth is that having WORSE hands call you is actually a GOOD thing. By raising 3.5x we are, we are costing ourselves alot of value with a hand like JJ. With less than 15 BBs im basically never folding JJ preflop (almost never, but obviously there are exceptions) and dont mind getting called by 1 or 2 marginal hands since I'm most likely shoving any flop. Slightly deeper stacked, and with a less strong hand it is even worse as you are giving up alot of chips because of the fold equity your giving the rest of the table. This subject has been all but mathmatically proven, and I can guarantee that any well educated online pro would agree.


As for calling the 200 turn bet (which although is "only" 20% of the pot, also happens to be about 25% of your remaining stack) you are basically commiting yourself. I believe he started the hand with 1100, 350 pre + 200 on turn = putting in half your stack. Unless you have a ton of history with the guy and you know hes an uber donk, you simply can't justify folding any river getting over 3-1. Also, calling off such a huge % of your stack without knowing exactly what you want to do on the river is never +ev. If youre check/folding you shouldnt of called the 200, if your check/calling all in, you should of just shoved since your going to pay him off anyway.

I don't think I realized how short he really was when typing my initial response, but I'd like to revise my advice. Best way to play the hand, raise to 250, shove ANY flop. By villian calling the 150 raise we can eliminate AA KK QQ AK AQ and prob even AJ AT, and KQs, so youre not in bad shape even on A high flop (AK flop sucks but I still just shove)

[eejit101]

Which is why i disagreed with the origional fld advice.

And i didnt know he was short either. Merge sucks.

Can you ppl play on Stars?

[freeringo]

I have to disagree on both your arguments, although I do see where youre coming from.

Raising more than 3x preflop with less than 40 or 50 bbs (some will argue that you need even more) is a very common leak among both live and online players. I used to play poker online very seriously before I started grad school, and for years I took your side of this argument, even after hearing my more experienced friends tell me why it was wrong (there are also several pokerxfactor videos backing up my claim). The truth is that having WORSE hands call you is actually a GOOD thing. By raising 3.5x we are, we are costing ourselves alot of value with a hand like JJ. With less than 15 BBs im basically never folding JJ preflop (almost never, but obviously there are exceptions) and dont mind getting called by 1 or 2 marginal hands since I'm most likely shoving any flop. Slightly deeper stacked, and with a less strong hand it is even worse as you are giving up alot of chips because of the fold equity your giving the rest of the table. This subject has been all but mathmatically proven, and I can guarantee that any well educated online pro would agree.


As for calling the 200 turn bet (which although is "only" 20% of the pot, also happens to be about 25% of your remaining stack) you are basically commiting yourself. I believe he started the hand with 1100, 350 pre + 200 on turn = putting in half your stack. Unless you have a ton of history with the guy and you know hes an uber donk, you simply can't justify folding any river getting over 3-1. Also, calling off such a huge % of your stack without knowing exactly what you want to do on the river is never +ev. If youre check/folding you shouldnt of called the 200, if your check/calling all in, you should of just shoved since your going to pay him off anyway.

I don't think I realized how short he really was when typing my initial response, but I'd like to revise my advice. Best way to play the hand, raise to 250, shove ANY flop. By villian calling the 150 raise we can eliminate AA KK QQ AK AQ and prob even AJ AT, and KQs, so youre not in bad shape even on A high flop (AK flop sucks but I still just shove)

I have considered your advise and I realize that a shove would have been my best approach after the flop. The 3x vs 3.5x blind push is really mute in my mind because it was only 50 chip difference and it is quicker to hit the pot button instead of typing in a proper bet. So it was a convienence bet thats all. Plus for some reason my radar was going off. Next time I do or die on that hand.

[eejit101]

Yeah but "hitting the pot button" is crucial in determining your skill as a poker player IMO.

Anyone can hit the pot button, its the pot size / bet size, that makes me know if you have a clue.

[freeringo]

Yeah but "hitting the pot button" is crucial in determining your skill as a poker player IMO.

Anyone can hit the pot button, its the pot size / bet size, that makes me know if you have a clue.

I am so clueless and lucky, to have friends point it out for me.

Good afternoon Phil

[CreamSoda]

Yeah but "hitting the pot button" is crucial in determining your skill as a poker player IMO.

Anyone can hit the pot button, its the pot size / bet size, that makes me know if you have a clue.

Why not just be nice?

[navuta]

I think he bluffed..
saw u checked 2 times.
With that flop..
I would bluff...lol..

[eejit101]

Why not just be nice?

I am being nice. Just saying that betting the pot "because its easy" is madness.

[violinBU]

Although he's obv a donk, CreamSoda is right with the 3.5x argument. And once upon a time it was me trying to convince him of why its wrong (took a long time, but obv I won!)

[eejit101]

Im sure all the math is good. Ive read it myself. But i play the way i play, and it works. So ill still raise between 3 and 4x the BB with AJ from there. But i do concede that there is reasoning behind the smaller raise, i just dont get why you want 2 or more extra hands in with you holding an Ace with a decent ish kicker