The Weekly Debate - Religeon

[KaciBlakely]

Right, i got bored, and decided to see how intelligent at debating we all are.

Ill start one each week, and pick a topic, and we can discuss.

Disclaimer - I shall edit i find anything persecuting, racist, or generally not suited for the discussion in this thread. You have been warned!

Right, religeon.. (rmember, this is opinion, some facts, and its not aimed at anyone)

Facts - The country i live in is 99% Christian as far as i know. Its also mianly white.

Another Fact - Christianity was invented in Rome in about 400AD (give or take) at a council to try and find a way of uniting the 2 hoardes in Rome that if left undone, would have killed the Roman empire.

There was a huge meeting, where everything from Christ's immortality to the names of his disciples were discussed. They incorporated images from other religions, like Halos from Egyptian gods for angels, the date of Dec 25th as Jesus's birthday was stolen from the December shortest date or whatever. Its all stolen and integrated well.

The bible is the most read book int he world. Its basically a story, with some carefully chosen advice, moral guidelines, and facts to live by to assign yourself to that faith if you so choose.

Now we are all sensible, and we all know this. But many many of us still follow it. Many believe of the Adam and Eve story, though science now proves it 99% to be wrong.

Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful bing watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just cant without proof.

I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesnt matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?

That being said, i still wish for things something, and want someone to answer. IS that a plea for proof, acceptance, guilt?? Who knows.


Discuss!

I'd just like to know where you found your facts or if they were opinion based.

I did a quick Google search and in The 2001 census 71.6 % of the UK population were listed as Christians.

So it seems for something to jump 27.4 % in 8 years seems awfully high. Too high in my opinion so I was just wondering on that end.

Also, Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the eastern Mediterranean in the mid-first century. It's earliest development is believed to have took place under the leadership of the Twelve Apostles, particularly Saint Peter and Paul the Apostle, followed by the early bishops, whom Christians considered the successors of the Apostles.

From the year 150, Christian teachers began to produce theological and apologetic works aimed at defending the faith. These authors are known as the Church Fathers, and study of them is called Patristics. Notable early Fathers include Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.

State persecution ceased in the 4th century, when Constantine I issued an edict of toleration in 313. On 27 February 380, Emperor Theodosius I enacted a law establishing Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. From at least the 4th century, Christianity has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization. So Christianity has existed before 400 AD.

Now when you were generalizing I have to admit that you left a lot out I feel because it's not just a story to some people, that can be opinion based for all I care, but there are hundreds of historic accounts in the bible, so saying it's just a story with moral guidelines, I kind of feel uneasy about.

Science and the bible go quite hand in hand though.

Here's some things that are scientific and in the bible to show you for example.

Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. I don't even think most people realize dinosaurs are talked about in the bible.

The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.
Jeremiah 31:35,36

"Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
Job 26:7

"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing."

The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
Ecclesiastes 1:6

"The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit."


The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
Job 28:25

"To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure."

*The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.*

The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.

Leviticus 17:11

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

*The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.*

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Isaiah 40:22

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.

The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in the book On the Heavens.

Those are all the ones I could find at the moment but I know there was a documentary about The Walls of Jericho falling and time stopping.

I'm gonna have to google to remember it but it's true. Scientists believe that if time didn't stop when the bible did then we should be ahead in our time line then where we actually are right now.

It's cool stuff, and I think by now you know I believe in God.

Now when you talk about denominations that is a completely different thing in my opinion because God didn't make denominations, man did, so yeah.

Hope you enjoyed this.

[taylovesthebeatles]

I'd like to take a moment to add a few thoughts after reading some of the other opinions here.

As a Christian, I will be the first to admit that there are many, many "Christians" who truly believe that they understand what it means to believe in God and live a Christian life, but who really give the rest of us a bad name and rap to the rest of the world. It's definitely out there, and I've seen it, which is one of the main reasons I became a Lutheran. So many people have judged me and others for what they see as a lack of "religious responsibility" for lack of a better term. According to these "Christians", other Christians are only considered as such if they go to church a certain percentage of time, have certain political beliefs, contribute to certain charities or participate in proselytising a certain amount, etc etc. Basically centered on works not faith, and anyone who falls outside of their pre-determined "definition" of Christianity is not deemed worthy enough to be a Christian. I am a firm believer that only God knows the true hearts of His people, and it is not our place as humans to judge one another on the strength of their religious faith according to their deeds, especially in Christianity. As I said in my earlier post, there is no need for salvation or for God for the Christian if humanity can make a difference in it's salvation. Truth is, we can't, and no amount of good deeds or bad deeds ultimately decides that. Lutheranism especially makes a huge distinction between Law and Gospel, and this is how that principle is applied-following the Law can only get you so far, but for Lutherans, as for all Christians, it is the Gospel that has the power to save.

I should also point out that the idea of enjoyment in life and living for the moment is not incompatible with Christian teaching by any means. On the contrary, Christians are encouraged to find joy in life, and as I stated before, good works alone will not affect salvation for the Christian. If someone's faith is strong and has a solid foundation, then good works will flow from that, and therefore joy from doing the work of God in their lives, but on their own these good works are nothing. So, any "Christian" who tries to tell you it's not okay to live life to the fullest is being silly.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask!

[freeringo]

I'd like to take a moment to add a few thoughts after reading some of the other opinions here.

As a Christian, I will be the first to admit that there are many, many "Christians" who truly believe that they understand what it means to believe in God and live a Christian life, but who really give the rest of us a bad name and rap to the rest of the world. It's definitely out there, and I've seen it, which is one of the main reasons I became a Lutheran. So many people have judged me and others for what they see as a lack of "religious responsibility" for lack of a better term. According to these "Christians", other Christians are only considered as such if they go to church a certain percentage of time, have certain political beliefs, contribute to certain charities or participate in proselytising a certain amount, etc etc. Basically centered on works not faith, and anyone who falls outside of their pre-determined "definition" of Christianity is not deemed worthy enough to be a Christian. I am a firm believer that only God knows the true hearts of His people, and it is not our place as humans to judge one another on the strength of their religious faith according to their deeds, especially in Christianity. As I said in my earlier post, there is no need for salvation or for God for the Christian if humanity can make a difference in it's salvation. Truth is, we can't, and no amount of good deeds or bad deeds ultimately decides that. Lutheranism especially makes a huge distinction between Law and Gospel, and this is how that principle is applied-following the Law can only get you so far, but for Lutherans, as for all Christians, it is the Gospel that has the power to save.

I should also point out that the idea of enjoyment in life and living for the moment is not incompatible with Christian teaching by any means. On the contrary, Christians are encouraged to find joy in life, and as I stated before, good works alone will not affect salvation for the Christian. If someone's faith is strong and has a solid foundation, then good works will flow from that, and therefore joy from doing the work of God in their lives, but on their own these good works are nothing. So, any "Christian" who tries to tell you it's not okay to live life to the fullest is being silly.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask!

Tay, I wanna hold your hand.
Will Kaci and Eejoy join us? Globug too? Lets all hold hands and try to make Heaven on Earth. Who will join us?

[GloBug]

Tay, I wanna hold your hand.
Will Kaci and Eejoy join us? Globug too? Lets all hold hands and try to make Heaven on Earth. Who will join us?

im there u feel my hand. dam i need some lotion my skin is kinda dry. any one got some. i know u ladies do. lol

[taylovesthebeatles]

im there u feel my hand. dam i need some lotion my skin is kinda dry. any one got some. i know u ladies do. lol

I don't have any. You should ask Jeff Dunham.

[GloBug]

I don't have any. You should ask Jeff Dunham.

lol ill do that. thanks

[eejit101]

Not bad, if your quoting someone though please tag who said it first.


And i guessed the figured for the UK as i said, i was including everyone who wasnt muslin or jewish or anything, forgetting people who dont tick any box (agnostic/atheist).


Also regarding the census, not everyone fills it in. So the numbers are always off.


And im not going to argue your beliefs, in any way. I just wanted to know what true believers say to the fact the bible was writting in 400AD by some romans to unite some rampaging people??

(again, not insulting)

[KaciBlakely]

I thought I quoted all the versuses. And I did mention I googled to find the info about the census and percentages. I thought I did everything right.

And the Bible is all about interpretation but some of it can be off because of language barriers but for the most part I believe it can be proven with science.

[eejit101]

You wrote all that? Fair enough.

[GloBug]

who knows what the date and times were for those things. its been interpreted so many times that things change everytime. it like have 10 people line up and tell the 1st one something and by the time it gets to the 10th person its all wrong. show me some physical evidence then i will believe. the only faith i have is in myself and family and friends. those are the people that help when time are rough. (even u people here at ndn) there is no higher being. for u to believe that a higher being is getting u thru the tough times i think that is just a cop out. it takes away the truth of reality of being on your mind. so it makes it easier on you when nothing has changed. kinda puts u in denial i think. y is there the new testament and the bible and all that stuff. who said write a new testament? God. if so tell him i want his phone number so i can talk to him. oh wait i can google it. oh wait no i cant because he doesnt exist today. i do believe that he was alive back then but he was like a king in way to the people he served. as for adam and eve. thats a bunch of BS. i dont believe it one bit. well ididnt want to go this route but i felt like i had to. im speaking my mind people speaking my mind. thats all no harm done.