The Weekly Debate - Religeon

[eejit101]

Right, i got bored, and decided to see how intelligent at debating we all are.

Ill start one each week, and pick a topic, and we can discuss.

Disclaimer - I shall edit i find anything persecuting, racist, or generally not suited for the discussion in this thread. You have been warned!



Right, religeon.. (rmember, this is opinion, some facts, and its not aimed at anyone)


Facts - The country i live in is 99% Christian as far as i know. Its also mianly white.

Another Fact - Christianity was invented in Rome in about 400AD (give or take) at a council to try and find a way of uniting the 2 hoardes in Rome that if left undone, would have killed the Roman empire.

There was a huge meeting, where everything from Christ's immortality to the names of his disciples were discussed. They incorporated images from other religions, like Halos from Egyptian gods for angels, the date of Dec 25th as Jesus's birthday was stolen from the December shortest date or whatever. Its all stolen and integrated well.


The bible is the most read book int he world. Its basically a story, with some carefully chosen advice, moral guidelines, and facts to live by to assign yourself to that faith if you so choose.


Now we are all sensible, and we all know this. But many many of us still follow it. Many believe of the Adam and Eve story, though science now proves it 99% to be wrong.


Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful bing watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just cant without proof.

I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesnt matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?



That being said, i still wish for things something, and want someone to answer. IS that a plea for proof, acceptance, guilt?? Who knows.


Discuss!

[BnLM5]

I don't really think that debating religion is a good place to start in my opinion. God above all things is almighty. I truly and with my entire being believe in God and in Jesus and in the Bible. To worship together is one thing but to bring up religion in a manner that it will be debated, with any possible arguement could lead to ruin. You do not and let me assure you again you DO NOT want the wrath of God coming down on you, or on this forum or any part of any one of us that is for sure. I would put my own faith and salvation on the fact that there is a God. The alpha and the omega.


To comment/give my answer on your faith question and it making sense, I understand your faith in something/anything thoughts. But faith is believing without have any logical proof. And you said "Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful being watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just can't without proof." Then you said, "I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesn't matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?" It is contradictory in a sense. Does this make sense to you?

[GloBug]

I don't really think that debating religion is a good place to start in my opinion. God above all things is almighty. I truly and with my entire being believe in God and in Jesus and in the Bible. To worship together is one thing but to bring up religion in a manner that it will be debated, with any possible arguement could lead to ruin. You do not and let me assure you again you DO NOT want the wrath of God coming down on you, or on this forum or any part of any one of us that is for sure. I would put my own faith and salvation on the fact that there is a God. The alpha and the omega.


To comment/give my answer on your faith question and it making sense, I understand your faith in something/anything thoughts. But faith is believing without have any logical proof. And you said "Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful being watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just can't without proof." Then you said, "I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesn't matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?" It is contradictory in a sense. Does this make sense to you?

LOL the wrath of god. are u kidding me. u say faith is believing without any logical proof. i dont understand that. i think it funny when people say i found 100 bucks on the ground and thanks to god for it. come on u have got to be kidding me someone dropped it and u got lucky that u found it first. like i said u have your opinoin and i have mine. thats good u have faith in something but u dont even know what it is. just my 2 cents.

[BnLM5]

LOL the wrath of god. are u kidding me. u say faith is believing without any logical proof. i dont understand that. i think it funny when people say i found 100 bucks on the ground and thanks to god for it. come on u have got to be kidding me someone dropped it and u got lucky that u found it first. like i said u have your opinoin and i have mine. thats good u have faith in something but u dont even know what it is. just my 2 cents.

At this point GloBug I still love you

[GloBug]

u know i dont want to say anything bad about someone and what they believe in. so if i make anyone mad it wasnt intended for it.. i still love u to. this thread is gonna be disasterous. lol

[taylovesthebeatles]

Ummm eejit wow you just opened a HUGE can of Worms with this thread. It's okay though, because I am on a strict Diet of them...
....
..........
......



(I'm a Lutheran)

Okay sorry to any of you who didn't find that funny. Anyways, yes, I too am a Christian and I agree with BnL that faith is the existence of things not seen. Faith is the most important part of any religion. However, I understand what eejit's trying to say when he say he wants proof. That's why faith is so difficult to have, and even the strongest Christians, myself included, have times where they doubt or even have a lack of faith. It's not a foolproof system by any means.

Having said that, as a Lutheran, I believe that God is the one who redeems. That is not to say that God only saves those he desires to, because God wants all his children to receive salvation. My point is that there is nothing we humans can do to receive that, it is a gift. Additionally, especially for the Christian, a lack of faith is not a weakness but rather a strength, as it allows God to work in our lives and therefore strengthen our faith. God know I'm going through an extreme test of faith in my own life right now.

To address GloBug's point, yes suffering is difficult to equate with the belief in the existence of a benevolent God. And I do not, nor I hope any Christian believe that God is the cause of suffering in people's lives. Having said that, what would be the point of faith without suffering, without doubts? There would be no need for the grace of God, because there would be no sin or suffering. Any rational person, believing or not, can see that there is suffering in the world, whether they personally equate any of it with sin or not.

I guess to sum it all up for eejit, having faith will allow us to see the proof. Because it's out there. But I will agree that faith is not something easily obtained or sustainable. But it's possible. And that's what I believe God's role in our lives is.

(Sorry if this made absolutely no sense, I'm up at four in the morning and can't sleep. I can try to clarify my position later when I'm more alert.)

[67christine]

I am not a believer in god at all. If there was one then why all the wars, why are kids starving etc etc. I do believe in Karma. If you do good, good things will happen to you.

If anyone has problems with this debate then easy solution, do not read it.

[GloBug]

well ill tell u this i only believwe in what i can see feel and run from. i am not a religous person. i went thru all the stuff such as confirmation and all that but i only did it because i was forced to. as soon as i turned 18 i was done with it. i think religion kills more than any other disease. my wife is catholic but we know our boundaries on it. i dont knock her on it and she does the same. the catholic religion is a fortune 500 company. look at all the money they get. what bugs me is all the priests getting caught with there pants down. if u know what i mean. and look at all the payouts. 100's of million of dollars and how did they get that money. hmmm makes u wonder. i dont understand how can u believe in something when the guy or priest that tells u things is molesting a child. i know this if one ever did that to my kid so help me god hes mine. i think this is a sore subject. i know people are gonna say things about my post and i know we all have our opinions and this is mine. well i think this thread is gonna be a long one. i think u can call me a atheist. or just a non believer.

[BnLM5]

well ill tell u this i only believwe in what i can see feel and run from. i am not a religous person. i went thru all the stuff such as confirmation and all that but i only did it because i was forced to. as soon as i turned 18 i was done with it. i think religion kills more than any other disease. my wife is catholic but we know our boundaries on it. i dont knock her on it and she does the same. the catholic religion is a fortune 500 company. look at all the money they get. what bugs me is all the priests getting caught with there pants down. if u know what i mean. and look at all the payouts. 100's of million of dollars and how did they get that money. hmmm makes u wonder. i dont understand how can u believe in something when the guy or priest that tells u things is molesting a child. i know this if one ever did that to my kid so help me god hes mine. i think this is a sore subject. i know people are gonna say things about my post and i know we all have our opinions and this is mine. well i think this thread is gonna be a long one. i think u can call me a atheist. or just a non believer.

Yes GloBug i agree that the priest and men that are portraying themselves to be leaders of God are pathetic disgusting sinners and WOE to them. There is no one with out sin but God himself and to put your faith in man/women will let you down most every time.

[GloBug]

Right, i got bored, and decided to see how intelligent at debating we all are.

Ill start one each week, and pick a topic, and we can discuss.

Disclaimer - I shall edit i find anything persecuting, racist, or generally not suited for the discussion in this thread. You have been warned!



Right, religeon.. (rmember, this is opinion, some facts, and its not aimed at anyone)


Facts - The country i live in is 99% Christian as far as i know. Its also mianly white.

Another Fact - Christianity was invented in Rome in about 400AD (give or take) at a council to try and find a way of uniting the 2 hoardes in Rome that if left undone, would have killed the Roman empire.

There was a huge meeting, where everything from Christ's immortality to the names of his disciples were discussed. They incorporated images from other religions, like Halos from Egyptian gods for angels, the date of Dec 25th as Jesus's birthday was stolen from the December shortest date or whatever. Its all stolen and integrated well.


The bible is the most read book int he world. Its basically a story, with some carefully chosen advice, moral guidelines, and facts to live by to assign yourself to that faith if you so choose.


Now we are all sensible, and we all know this. But many many of us still follow it. Many believe of the Adam and Eve story, though science now proves it 99% to be wrong.


Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful bing watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just cant without proof.

I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesnt matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?



That being said, i still wish for things something, and want someone to answer. IS that a plea for proof, acceptance, guilt?? Who knows.


Discuss!

damn eejit u just opened a can of worms. some people will have there fellings hurt by this thread. disclaimer or not.

[KaciBlakely]

Right, i got bored, and decided to see how intelligent at debating we all are.

Ill start one each week, and pick a topic, and we can discuss.

Disclaimer - I shall edit i find anything persecuting, racist, or generally not suited for the discussion in this thread. You have been warned!



Right, religeon.. (rmember, this is opinion, some facts, and its not aimed at anyone)


Facts - The country i live in is 99% Christian as far as i know. Its also mianly white.

Another Fact - Christianity was invented in Rome in about 400AD (give or take) at a council to try and find a way of uniting the 2 hoardes in Rome that if left undone, would have killed the Roman empire.

There was a huge meeting, where everything from Christ's immortality to the names of his disciples were discussed. They incorporated images from other religions, like Halos from Egyptian gods for angels, the date of Dec 25th as Jesus's birthday was stolen from the December shortest date or whatever. Its all stolen and integrated well.


The bible is the most read book int he world. Its basically a story, with some carefully chosen advice, moral guidelines, and facts to live by to assign yourself to that faith if you so choose.


Now we are all sensible, and we all know this. But many many of us still follow it. Many believe of the Adam and Eve story, though science now proves it 99% to be wrong.


Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful bing watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just cant without proof.

I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesnt matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?



That being said, i still wish for things something, and want someone to answer. IS that a plea for proof, acceptance, guilt?? Who knows.


Discuss!

You spelled religion wrong!

It's R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N .

Just thought I would give you that helpful advise and this thread has so many things I have to comment on.

Here is this though and I'll make a better post about my opinion later on.

[eejit101]

helpful response.

Thanks for your input

[KaciBlakely]

helpful response.

Thanks for your input

Did you mean that eejit?

I can not tell from you after we had our ***** fight, lmfao.

But hopefully that was serious.

[eejit101]

Im not getting involved. To post in this thread the new rule is it has to be about the topic in discussion.

[GloBug]

You spelled religion wrong!

It's R-E-L-I-G-I-O-N .

Just thought I would give you that helpful advise and this thread has so many things I have to comment on.

Here is this though and I'll make a better post about my opinion later on.

forgive him he from THE UNITED KINGDOM of EEJIT. lick it.

[KaciBlakely]

forgive him he from THE UNITED KINGDOM of EEJIT. lick it.

So there's no correct spelling in The United Kingdom of Eejit?

I don't have a problem I was just letting him know, not being rude or anything.

LOL on the lick it.

[KaciBlakely]

Right, i got bored, and decided to see how intelligent at debating we all are.

Ill start one each week, and pick a topic, and we can discuss.

Disclaimer - I shall edit i find anything persecuting, racist, or generally not suited for the discussion in this thread. You have been warned!

Right, religeon.. (rmember, this is opinion, some facts, and its not aimed at anyone)

Facts - The country i live in is 99% Christian as far as i know. Its also mianly white.

Another Fact - Christianity was invented in Rome in about 400AD (give or take) at a council to try and find a way of uniting the 2 hoardes in Rome that if left undone, would have killed the Roman empire.

There was a huge meeting, where everything from Christ's immortality to the names of his disciples were discussed. They incorporated images from other religions, like Halos from Egyptian gods for angels, the date of Dec 25th as Jesus's birthday was stolen from the December shortest date or whatever. Its all stolen and integrated well.

The bible is the most read book int he world. Its basically a story, with some carefully chosen advice, moral guidelines, and facts to live by to assign yourself to that faith if you so choose.

Now we are all sensible, and we all know this. But many many of us still follow it. Many believe of the Adam and Eve story, though science now proves it 99% to be wrong.

Now personally, i have no idea what to believe. Id love to think there was an all powerful bing watching us all, caring for us, answering prayers, but i just cant without proof.

I am very open minded, I'd love to have faith in something, anything, as all in all i think it doesnt matter who you have faith in, as long as you have some? does that make sense?

That being said, i still wish for things something, and want someone to answer. IS that a plea for proof, acceptance, guilt?? Who knows.


Discuss!

I'd just like to know where you found your facts or if they were opinion based.

I did a quick Google search and in The 2001 census 71.6 % of the UK population were listed as Christians.

So it seems for something to jump 27.4 % in 8 years seems awfully high. Too high in my opinion so I was just wondering on that end.

Also, Christianity began as a Jewish sect in the eastern Mediterranean in the mid-first century. It's earliest development is believed to have took place under the leadership of the Twelve Apostles, particularly Saint Peter and Paul the Apostle, followed by the early bishops, whom Christians considered the successors of the Apostles.

From the year 150, Christian teachers began to produce theological and apologetic works aimed at defending the faith. These authors are known as the Church Fathers, and study of them is called Patristics. Notable early Fathers include Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.

State persecution ceased in the 4th century, when Constantine I issued an edict of toleration in 313. On 27 February 380, Emperor Theodosius I enacted a law establishing Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire. From at least the 4th century, Christianity has played a prominent role in the shaping of Western civilization. So Christianity has existed before 400 AD.

Now when you were generalizing I have to admit that you left a lot out I feel because it's not just a story to some people, that can be opinion based for all I care, but there are hundreds of historic accounts in the bible, so saying it's just a story with moral guidelines, I kind of feel uneasy about.

Science and the bible go quite hand in hand though.

Here's some things that are scientific and in the bible to show you for example.

Dinosaurs are referred to in several Bible books. The book of Job describes two dinosaurs. One is described in chapter 40 starting at verse 15, and the other in chapter 41 starting at verse 1. I don't even think most people realize dinosaurs are talked about in the bible.

The Bible describes the precision of movement in the universe.
Jeremiah 31:35,36

"Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

The Bible describes the suspension of the Earth in space.
Job 26:7

"He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing."

The Bible describes the circulation of the atmosphere.
Ecclesiastes 1:6

"The wind goes toward the south,
And turns around to the north;
The wind whirls about continually,
And comes again on its circuit."


The Bible includes some principles of fluid dynamics.
Job 28:25

"To establish a weight for the wind,
And apportion the waters by measure."

*The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.*

The book of Leviticus (written prior to 1400 BC) describes the value of blood.

Leviticus 17:11

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."

*The blood carries water and nourishment to every cell, maintains the body’s temperature, and removes the waste material of the body’s cells. The blood also carries oxygen from the lungs throughout the body. In 1616, William Harvey discovered that blood circulation is the key factor in physical life—confirming what the Bible revealed 3,000 years earlier.*

The Bible described the shape of the earth centuries before people thought that the earth was spherical.
Isaiah 40:22

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in."

The word translated “circle” here is the Hebrew word chuwg which is also translated “circuit,” or “compass” (depending on the context). That is, it indicates something spherical, rounded, or arched—not something that is flat or square.

The book of Isaiah was written sometime between 740 and 680 BC. This is at least 300 years before Aristotle suggested that the earth might be a sphere in the book On the Heavens.

Those are all the ones I could find at the moment but I know there was a documentary about The Walls of Jericho falling and time stopping.

I'm gonna have to google to remember it but it's true. Scientists believe that if time didn't stop when the bible did then we should be ahead in our time line then where we actually are right now.

It's cool stuff, and I think by now you know I believe in God.

Now when you talk about denominations that is a completely different thing in my opinion because God didn't make denominations, man did, so yeah.

Hope you enjoyed this.

[taylovesthebeatles]

I'd like to take a moment to add a few thoughts after reading some of the other opinions here.

As a Christian, I will be the first to admit that there are many, many "Christians" who truly believe that they understand what it means to believe in God and live a Christian life, but who really give the rest of us a bad name and rap to the rest of the world. It's definitely out there, and I've seen it, which is one of the main reasons I became a Lutheran. So many people have judged me and others for what they see as a lack of "religious responsibility" for lack of a better term. According to these "Christians", other Christians are only considered as such if they go to church a certain percentage of time, have certain political beliefs, contribute to certain charities or participate in proselytising a certain amount, etc etc. Basically centered on works not faith, and anyone who falls outside of their pre-determined "definition" of Christianity is not deemed worthy enough to be a Christian. I am a firm believer that only God knows the true hearts of His people, and it is not our place as humans to judge one another on the strength of their religious faith according to their deeds, especially in Christianity. As I said in my earlier post, there is no need for salvation or for God for the Christian if humanity can make a difference in it's salvation. Truth is, we can't, and no amount of good deeds or bad deeds ultimately decides that. Lutheranism especially makes a huge distinction between Law and Gospel, and this is how that principle is applied-following the Law can only get you so far, but for Lutherans, as for all Christians, it is the Gospel that has the power to save.

I should also point out that the idea of enjoyment in life and living for the moment is not incompatible with Christian teaching by any means. On the contrary, Christians are encouraged to find joy in life, and as I stated before, good works alone will not affect salvation for the Christian. If someone's faith is strong and has a solid foundation, then good works will flow from that, and therefore joy from doing the work of God in their lives, but on their own these good works are nothing. So, any "Christian" who tries to tell you it's not okay to live life to the fullest is being silly.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask!

[freeringo]

I'd like to take a moment to add a few thoughts after reading some of the other opinions here.

As a Christian, I will be the first to admit that there are many, many "Christians" who truly believe that they understand what it means to believe in God and live a Christian life, but who really give the rest of us a bad name and rap to the rest of the world. It's definitely out there, and I've seen it, which is one of the main reasons I became a Lutheran. So many people have judged me and others for what they see as a lack of "religious responsibility" for lack of a better term. According to these "Christians", other Christians are only considered as such if they go to church a certain percentage of time, have certain political beliefs, contribute to certain charities or participate in proselytising a certain amount, etc etc. Basically centered on works not faith, and anyone who falls outside of their pre-determined "definition" of Christianity is not deemed worthy enough to be a Christian. I am a firm believer that only God knows the true hearts of His people, and it is not our place as humans to judge one another on the strength of their religious faith according to their deeds, especially in Christianity. As I said in my earlier post, there is no need for salvation or for God for the Christian if humanity can make a difference in it's salvation. Truth is, we can't, and no amount of good deeds or bad deeds ultimately decides that. Lutheranism especially makes a huge distinction between Law and Gospel, and this is how that principle is applied-following the Law can only get you so far, but for Lutherans, as for all Christians, it is the Gospel that has the power to save.

I should also point out that the idea of enjoyment in life and living for the moment is not incompatible with Christian teaching by any means. On the contrary, Christians are encouraged to find joy in life, and as I stated before, good works alone will not affect salvation for the Christian. If someone's faith is strong and has a solid foundation, then good works will flow from that, and therefore joy from doing the work of God in their lives, but on their own these good works are nothing. So, any "Christian" who tries to tell you it's not okay to live life to the fullest is being silly.

If anyone has any questions for me, feel free to ask!

Tay, I wanna hold your hand.
Will Kaci and Eejoy join us? Globug too? Lets all hold hands and try to make Heaven on Earth. Who will join us?

[GloBug]

Tay, I wanna hold your hand.
Will Kaci and Eejoy join us? Globug too? Lets all hold hands and try to make Heaven on Earth. Who will join us?

im there u feel my hand. dam i need some lotion my skin is kinda dry. any one got some. i know u ladies do. lol

[taylovesthebeatles]

im there u feel my hand. dam i need some lotion my skin is kinda dry. any one got some. i know u ladies do. lol

I don't have any. You should ask Jeff Dunham.

[eejit101]

Not bad, if your quoting someone though please tag who said it first.


And i guessed the figured for the UK as i said, i was including everyone who wasnt muslin or jewish or anything, forgetting people who dont tick any box (agnostic/atheist).


Also regarding the census, not everyone fills it in. So the numbers are always off.


And im not going to argue your beliefs, in any way. I just wanted to know what true believers say to the fact the bible was writting in 400AD by some romans to unite some rampaging people??

(again, not insulting)

[KaciBlakely]

I thought I quoted all the versuses. And I did mention I googled to find the info about the census and percentages. I thought I did everything right.

And the Bible is all about interpretation but some of it can be off because of language barriers but for the most part I believe it can be proven with science.

[eejit101]

You wrote all that? Fair enough.

[GloBug]

who knows what the date and times were for those things. its been interpreted so many times that things change everytime. it like have 10 people line up and tell the 1st one something and by the time it gets to the 10th person its all wrong. show me some physical evidence then i will believe. the only faith i have is in myself and family and friends. those are the people that help when time are rough. (even u people here at ndn) there is no higher being. for u to believe that a higher being is getting u thru the tough times i think that is just a cop out. it takes away the truth of reality of being on your mind. so it makes it easier on you when nothing has changed. kinda puts u in denial i think. y is there the new testament and the bible and all that stuff. who said write a new testament? God. if so tell him i want his phone number so i can talk to him. oh wait i can google it. oh wait no i cant because he doesnt exist today. i do believe that he was alive back then but he was like a king in way to the people he served. as for adam and eve. thats a bunch of BS. i dont believe it one bit. well ididnt want to go this route but i felt like i had to. im speaking my mind people speaking my mind. thats all no harm done.