Squeeze Play/Blind Stealing/Preflop Stealing

[eejit101]

Now, i know for a fact that every single person who reads this post will think blind stealing is "vital", and will do it as much as they can.

The main point of this thread is to point out that your not always as low as you think. Also it points out the risks of various plays, some odds, some strategy, and general poker common sense.

Also gonna tel you why my game works well for this, and also why i do make some stupid moves with it.



Now, lets deal with the title of this thread bit by bit.

1 - Squeeze play.

The general purpose of a squeeze play is to pick up a raise, or some limp, or a raise and some calls, without seeing a flop, or any more cards after a flop (this is more commonly done preflop though). This is usually done with a medium hand. Something like ATish, maybe 88-1010.

This is similar to a blind steal, but your against more hands so its riskier, but in essence your hand appears stronger because more people are in the pot already and your still making the move.

Now, this isnt done in the first stages of a tournament, as the blinds have no serious effect on your stack for about 2 hours. Unless you get short, then your in no position to make a squeeze anyway.

For this to work you need to have at least 5x the raise of the origional raiser. Or if there is limps, 7x the big blind and one more for each limp. So 4 limps is 11x BB. This isnt a god given fact, just something ive worked out based on playing, watching, and reading.

It works best from the blinds, for obvious reasons, as your hand is disguised well there, your last to act preflop, you can see who is betting/calling/raising and what their image is, you can possibly assign ranges and get some information before you make your move.

The aim of this is for you to win whats in the pot without being called. But, not doing it in a haphazard way, with any hand, so if you do run into someone who is willing to call you with 1010, or AQ, you must have at least some outs to make it pot odds correct. As they will be getting some kinds of calling odds, which is why i put down the amounts you need to have to make it work, as if you arent deep enugh when you push over the top, youll get called instantly as they will be getting waaay too good odds.

The best time to use this play is when people are playing scared. Money bubbles. This is the perfect time to accumulate chips by squeezing out players when they arent willing to commit their stack after limping or an opening raise. Its also handy when your short handed at a table, as peoples hand ranges open up due to the lesser amount of players, so where A9 was a fold at a 10 handed table (at least for good players) it now becomes a semi-premium hand, but facing an all in from someone, it goes back to not looking that good.

Ive encounted problems with this. I never really did it, then as i learned more about the game i started to use it, and use it well. However recently ive done it at some bad times. Just now i was the big blind, blinds are 200/400 with an ante of 40. I have 6k chips. Everyone folds, the SB limps. That puts 1200 in the pot. I have A8. I push all in, attempting to pick up the 800 bonus. He calls after 10 seconds with JJ. I lose, im down to 2k.

Now i thought this was a good idea at the time. But heres why it isnt. The only way i can win chips here is if he folds. If he can call me, i am guaranteed at best to be 47% to win vs an underpair. more than likely im behind to a bigger ace. And i doubt he calls with KQ/QJ ish. I can also win if i suckout, but thats bad poker to actually think you are behind but can suckout.

If i check, i have chances to hit an Ace, or a flop that can cancel his Jacks. The flop i had was K T 2. With 2 diamonds. He had no diamonds, and JJ. If he cehcks this flop, id immediately continuation bet for half the pot. Hed then porbably fold. I would therefore pick up the same pot but only risking 1/4 of my stack, instead of all of it. Also i can fold A8 if he shows signs on agression on any flop i miss. If he does, this means i was beat anyway so its a good job i didnt push to steal the pot.

I guess the moral of this part is learning to pick your spots better. Ive seen people try and squeeze with A5 suited, for 3x the raise after a small raise. They are easily getting called due to comitment and odds, and cmon, what the hell does A5 beat? Nothing.



2 - Blind Stealing.


Basically the act of winning the blinds prelfop without seeing a flop. This is usually done from later position, and done by raising a largeish amount, or pushing all in.

Blind stealing is vital. I wont deny that. Remember, at no time am i going to say dont steal blinds. If you dont, you wont win as much. Period.

I used to count 10x big blinds as the amount before i go into push of fold mode. This was a few years ago. since then, and since some long chats with NDN and other good players on this subject, ive kinda changed. Ive seen people fold their blinds when they had 200 chips and their blind was 150. And ive seen it work to good effect. Why??

Basically blind stealing is used way too often. IT gets picked off easier now. Just an hour ago i called with K6 from the BB for a 6x raise from the cutoff. They had Q2. They spent ages yelling at me as to how my call sucked. The fact id spent 30minutes watching them do similar moves, and once showing down 45suited, made me not comment but let her go on her merry way. This call is not me showing off, its attempting to show people why you dont need to steal. The blinds were 500/1000. She had 5,500. Thats still about 4 orbits. 40hands+ to find a decent hand. Stealing those blinds got her 1500 if i folded. Waiting for abigger hand might lose her 1k more chips waiting, but it will doubler her up or at least get her all in with a 65%+ chance of winning, not a 30% shot. Its insane to me that people will go all in with crap to steal a round of blinds, and not think through the consequences of what they are doing.


If you do it too often, people realise your doing it and lower their hand ranges on what they are willing to call you with. Any ace or king becomes calllable. Any pair. Some bigger suited connectors and 1gappers. Doing it a few times might work in the short run, but it gets you no respect for when you need to do it again after folding a few rounds of hands.


Stealing blinds is all about timing. Its about doing it when noone is in the pot before you, you have position. And you must have SOME kind of hand incase you get called. Id much rather attempt it with 78suited than K4 or A6. you have many more outs to win, and its unlikely your not drawing to live cards. The trick is not getting called, and not letting them realising your doing it.

I used to do it way too often. Id get down to 10x BB or less and start then. Then i realised what is this actually doing for me? I get a free round, but the blinds go up soon and i then dro right back down to where i started. Yeah do it sometimes so you dont blind out, but waiting for a hand that you want action on, even if its AJ or something and your in late position you want some kind of mediumish hand to call so you can get a serious pot won.

Ive played a fair amount of SnGs with someone on here, and we discuss some hands retrospectively after playing, or after tha hand. Often in the past id get low and start making bold moves, trying to get back to some sort of retainable stack, while he would be patient, blind alot lower down, then when he is low and people are taking advantage go in with a mediumish hand, and be ahead or close to it of the cra hands people were stealing his blinds with, or pushing with a strong hand, and basically pricing in the blind into calling for an easy double up. Id often bust and he would still be in and go from there onwards. Since then ive found it alot easier to fold marginal stealing hands in stealable positions, not wanting to appear loose, and to keep some kind of image intact for if i get a slightly better hand to do it with soon, therefore keeping them thinking im not stealing.

In a SnG if your short you obviously cant wait for bigger hands to come along, so you have to improvise, but in an MTT your normally 10handed, so you have ages to wait on some hands to play that are stronger than what you could be trying to win a few chips with.


The essence of this is to stop you from going all in just with the intent of stealing if you get pretty low (10x BB ish). Yes go all in if youve got a good hand and are low, but with say 10x BBs you still have a fair amount of orbits left before your screwed, and you can still open raise and fold out if you miss a flop. Theres no need to stake everyone on one medium hand because your the shortest stack at the table.



Preflop stealing.

Ive covered this in both the above posts mostly. Its basically squeezing, with some stealing mixed in. I win alot of my pots preflop, i can reraise preflop with anything if i believe i can get them off hands. This is alot more read dependant, so if people are opening alot and going to showdown with marginal hands, make notes on this, as you can easily get them off these hands with a reraise or all in.













That kinds covers what im trying to say here. I know NDN is gonna add a few words, and probably mock a couple of my recent plays he has seen, and he is justified as looking back a couple of them were dreadful.


Anyone want to comment feel free.

[eejit101]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[thenutzaa1]

nice post eejit.....

i looked at the squeeze part of it but got tired so i will finish reading it tom. and i will reply to it. i will make a reply on what i think or if i can add anything.

cant wait to finish it and comment.

[eejit101]

The squeeze part is the most important. Its a non-basic part of poker, the blind stealing is just a continuation of basic poker

[thenutzaa1]

Ok eejit i got a lot of sleep and i am ready to talk about this post.

My first comment about the squeeze play is that it is very important to start doing this when you are in a MTT and the blinds are high. Also the best time i found is to do this around the bubble spot because thats when people want to sit and make money....You have to watch out for other people that know about this. My best experience was in a Tounrey with around 200 people and we were at 48 people left and i was sitting in 20th...... the money was at 42 people so i started to make a lot of squeeze plays. It worked out great untill someone else at my table was doing it as well and we were seroiusly winning evey other hand...we were alternating. i moved up to 9th by doing this with 42 to go and then i stopped.

And the only time i read about making squeeze plays were in D Negreanu book(small ball). he says the best time would be in the samll blind and attack limpers with it. so if you got 2 limpers and he says raise to about 70% of the pot and you will win 70% of the time.

about blind stealing it is important but then agian its not at all. i played in a 10 person sit-n-go and i didnt play a hand because i wanted to caculate how many hands i get per blind and when do i need to start playing...
I found out that around 75-150 blinds you would be around 1100 depending on how many people are gone by then. And four people were gone already in the tounrey i sat out for.

it was about 6 hands per blind for the first 3 blinds 5/10......10/20.........15/30 that is 18 hands dealt so you lose around 2 blinds....i can wait for aces lol

then it started going 9 to 12 hands around the table for 25/50.....50/100......75/150 so this is when you need to start turning it on but you can still wait.....(blind stealing). The great thing about this is people veiw you as a very tight player and all you did was wait around for aces. So blind stealing is a lot my successful now....

i hope i made some sense out of this....haha any question let me know...

[freeringo]

I only know how to steal.
I don't know how to play any other way.
I am sorry and I do expect to get called with 67.
I suq

[nodepositneeded]

I'm going to address this with my thoughts a little later tonight.

The idea of this thread came from discussions between eejit101 and myself about the various plays that are in the title of this thread.

Basically, eejit101 has started to use these plays too often and in some bad spots, and I don't use these plays often enough.

So we're hoping that we can use this thread to better both of our own games, and in the process help everyone else by getting a good discussion going.

Stay tuned for my comments, and please let everyone know your own thoughts as well!

[eejit101]

Hmm, nuts basically agrees with everything i say, which is good, as what i say is awesome advice

I have a feeling NDN is going to make another one of his once a month huge posts behind me soon

[thenutzaa1]

Hmm, nuts basically agrees with everything i say, which is good, as what i say is awesome advice

I have a feeling NDN is going to make another one of his once a month huge posts behind me soon

I cant wait for it..........

i want to know what NDN thinks

[freeringo]

I am on the edge of my seat eagerly awaiting the
words that will elevate my poker abilities.

[thenutzaa1]

I am on the edge of my seat eagerly awaiting the
words that will elevate my poker abilities.

i think we all are freeringo......lol

[eejit101]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, maybe he will do it today

[thenutzaa1]

maybe we will get a reponse tonight by NDN.......

he must be writing a book on this hahaa joking NDN

[vickid]

Now, i know for a fact that every single person who reads this post will think blind stealing is "vital", and will do it as much as they can.

The main point of this thread is to point out that your not always as low as you think. Also it points out the risks of various plays, some odds, some strategy, and general poker common sense.

Also gonna tel you why my game works well for this, and also why i do make some stupid moves with it.



Now, lets deal with the title of this thread bit by bit.

1 - Squeeze play.

The general purpose of a squeeze play is to pick up a raise, or some limp, or a raise and some calls, without seeing a flop, or any more cards after a flop (this is more commonly done preflop though). This is usually done with a medium hand. Something like ATish, maybe 88-1010.

This is similar to a blind steal, but your against more hands so its riskier, but in essence your hand appears stronger because more people are in the pot already and your still making the move.

Now, this isnt done in the first stages of a tournament, as the blinds have no serious effect on your stack for about 2 hours. Unless you get short, then your in no position to make a squeeze anyway.

For this to work you need to have at least 5x the raise of the origional raiser. Or if there is limps, 7x the big blind and one more for each limp. So 4 limps is 11x BB. This isnt a god given fact, just something ive worked out based on playing, watching, and reading.

It works best from the blinds, for obvious reasons, as your hand is disguised well there, your last to act preflop, you can see who is betting/calling/raising and what their image is, you can possibly assign ranges and get some information before you make your move.

The aim of this is for you to win whats in the pot without being called. But, not doing it in a haphazard way, with any hand, so if you do run into someone who is willing to call you with 1010, or AQ, you must have at least some outs to make it pot odds correct. As they will be getting some kinds of calling odds, which is why i put down the amounts you need to have to make it work, as if you arent deep enugh when you push over the top, youll get called instantly as they will be getting waaay too good odds.

The best time to use this play is when people are playing scared. Money bubbles. This is the perfect time to accumulate chips by squeezing out players when they arent willing to commit their stack after limping or an opening raise. Its also handy when your short handed at a table, as peoples hand ranges open up due to the lesser amount of players, so where A9 was a fold at a 10 handed table (at least for good players) it now becomes a semi-premium hand, but facing an all in from someone, it goes back to not looking that good.

Ive encounted problems with this. I never really did it, then as i learned more about the game i started to use it, and use it well. However recently ive done it at some bad times. Just now i was the big blind, blinds are 200/400 with an ante of 40. I have 6k chips. Everyone folds, the SB limps. That puts 1200 in the pot. I have A8. I push all in, attempting to pick up the 800 bonus. He calls after 10 seconds with JJ. I lose, im down to 2k.

Now i thought this was a good idea at the time. But heres why it isnt. The only way i can win chips here is if he folds. If he can call me, i am guaranteed at best to be 47% to win vs an underpair. more than likely im behind to a bigger ace. And i doubt he calls with KQ/QJ ish. I can also win if i suckout, but thats bad poker to actually think you are behind but can suckout.

If i check, i have chances to hit an Ace, or a flop that can cancel his Jacks. The flop i had was K T 2. With 2 diamonds. He had no diamonds, and JJ. If he cehcks this flop, id immediately continuation bet for half the pot. Hed then porbably fold. I would therefore pick up the same pot but only risking 1/4 of my stack, instead of all of it. Also i can fold A8 if he shows signs on agression on any flop i miss. If he does, this means i was beat anyway so its a good job i didnt push to steal the pot.

I guess the moral of this part is learning to pick your spots better. Ive seen people try and squeeze with A5 suited, for 3x the raise after a small raise. They are easily getting called due to comitment and odds, and cmon, what the hell does A5 beat? Nothing.



2 - Blind Stealing.


Basically the act of winning the blinds prelfop without seeing a flop. This is usually done from later position, and done by raising a largeish amount, or pushing all in.

Blind stealing is vital. I wont deny that. Remember, at no time am i going to say dont steal blinds. If you dont, you wont win as much. Period.

I used to count 10x big blinds as the amount before i go into push of fold mode. This was a few years ago. since then, and since some long chats with NDN and other good players on this subject, ive kinda changed. Ive seen people fold their blinds when they had 200 chips and their blind was 150. And ive seen it work to good effect. Why??

Basically blind stealing is used way too often. IT gets picked off easier now. Just an hour ago i called with K6 from the BB for a 6x raise from the cutoff. They had Q2. They spent ages yelling at me as to how my call sucked. The fact id spent 30minutes watching them do similar moves, and once showing down 45suited, made me not comment but let her go on her merry way. This call is not me showing off, its attempting to show people why you dont need to steal. The blinds were 500/1000. She had 5,500. Thats still about 4 orbits. 40hands+ to find a decent hand. Stealing those blinds got her 1500 if i folded. Waiting for abigger hand might lose her 1k more chips waiting, but it will doubler her up or at least get her all in with a 65%+ chance of winning, not a 30% shot. Its insane to me that people will go all in with crap to steal a round of blinds, and not think through the consequences of what they are doing.


If you do it too often, people realise your doing it and lower their hand ranges on what they are willing to call you with. Any ace or king becomes calllable. Any pair. Some bigger suited connectors and 1gappers. Doing it a few times might work in the short run, but it gets you no respect for when you need to do it again after folding a few rounds of hands.


Stealing blinds is all about timing. Its about doing it when noone is in the pot before you, you have position. And you must have SOME kind of hand incase you get called. Id much rather attempt it with 78suited than K4 or A6. you have many more outs to win, and its unlikely your not drawing to live cards. The trick is not getting called, and not letting them realising your doing it.

I used to do it way too often. Id get down to 10x BB or less and start then. Then i realised what is this actually doing for me? I get a free round, but the blinds go up soon and i then dro right back down to where i started. Yeah do it sometimes so you dont blind out, but waiting for a hand that you want action on, even if its AJ or something and your in late position you want some kind of mediumish hand to call so you can get a serious pot won.

Ive played a fair amount of SnGs with someone on here, and we discuss some hands retrospectively after playing, or after tha hand. Often in the past id get low and start making bold moves, trying to get back to some sort of retainable stack, while he would be patient, blind alot lower down, then when he is low and people are taking advantage go in with a mediumish hand, and be ahead or close to it of the cra hands people were stealing his blinds with, or pushing with a strong hand, and basically pricing in the blind into calling for an easy double up. Id often bust and he would still be in and go from there onwards. Since then ive found it alot easier to fold marginal stealing hands in stealable positions, not wanting to appear loose, and to keep some kind of image intact for if i get a slightly better hand to do it with soon, therefore keeping them thinking im not stealing.

In a SnG if your short you obviously cant wait for bigger hands to come along, so you have to improvise, but in an MTT your normally 10handed, so you have ages to wait on some hands to play that are stronger than what you could be trying to win a few chips with.


The essence of this is to stop you from going all in just with the intent of stealing if you get pretty low (10x BB ish). Yes go all in if youve got a good hand and are low, but with say 10x BBs you still have a fair amount of orbits left before your screwed, and you can still open raise and fold out if you miss a flop. Theres no need to stake everyone on one medium hand because your the shortest stack at the table.



Preflop stealing.

Ive covered this in both the above posts mostly. Its basically squeezing, with some stealing mixed in. I win alot of my pots preflop, i can reraise preflop with anything if i believe i can get them off hands. This is alot more read dependant, so if people are opening alot and going to showdown with marginal hands, make notes on this, as you can easily get them off these hands with a reraise or all in.



thanx for this eejit it was very help fully and i will try to impliment it in my game

[vickid]

Ok eejit i got a lot of sleep and i am ready to talk about this post.

My first comment about the squeeze play is that it is very important to start doing this when you are in a MTT and the blinds are high. Also the best time i found is to do this around the bubble spot because thats when people want to sit and make money....You have to watch out for other people that know about this. My best experience was in a Tounrey with around 200 people and we were at 48 people left and i was sitting in 20th...... the money was at 42 people so i started to make a lot of squeeze plays. It worked out great untill someone else at my table was doing it as well and we were seroiusly winning evey other hand...we were alternating. i moved up to 9th by doing this with 42 to go and then i stopped.

And the only time i read about making squeeze plays were in D Negreanu book(small ball). he says the best time would be in the samll blind and attack limpers with it. so if you got 2 limpers and he says raise to about 70% of the pot and you will win 70% of the time.

about blind stealing it is important but then agian its not at all. i played in a 10 person sit-n-go and i didnt play a hand because i wanted to caculate how many hands i get per blind and when do i need to start playing...
I found out that around 75-150 blinds you would be around 1100 depending on how many people are gone by then. And four people were gone already in the tounrey i sat out for.

it was about 6 hands per blind for the first 3 blinds 5/10......10/20.........15/30 that is 18 hands dealt so you lose around 2 blinds....i can wait for aces lol

then it started going 9 to 12 hands around the table for 25/50.....50/100......75/150 so this is when you need to start turning it on but you can still wait.....(blind stealing). The great thing about this is people veiw you as a very tight player and all you did was wait around for aces. So blind stealing is a lot my successful now....

i hope i made some sense out of this....haha any question let me know...




i have done something like this before i really like this comment thanks buddy