Wimps drawing out of position

[kingsnthahole]

i make a decent amount of my stack in either tournaments or cash tables by targeting wimps. One of THE biggest things i've picked up on especially at the cash tables is drawing wimps, these fish that MIN BET a flush draw or a straight draw OUT OF POSITION...soo easy to spot

be advised these people are mostly donkeys, so if you raise be prepared to get called

common scenario i see every day, I have Qc6c in late position, all limpers...flop comes down Ks 9s 3h...check, check, guy/girl bets .10 into a pot of .60...umm yea lets isolate this wimp right now...so i reraise to .60 make sure noone have a strong king, fold around, guy snap calls...ok hes got the Ace hi flush draw, from where he limped in mid position i put him on a range of A4spades to A7spades, turn 6d...dude STILL bets out min, i snap call...river 2d...at this point he tries to get cute on me and bets half the pot..i know im good here but given there are 2 overs i think the pot is big enough, even if im 99% on my read...so i smooth call and he flips up A3 of spades, min betting a pair and a flush draw the whole way...and i take down a 3 dollar pot with a pair of 6's...

another scenario...
i get dealt T9o in the cutoff seat, 4 limpers in front of me...limp, checks around, flop comes 4 7 9 rainbow...SB/bb both check and utg bets min .10, DUHHH 56s??? haha, so again i reraise knowing that if an 8, 3, or maybe even if a 5 or 6 hit im probably check/folding...so i reraise to isolate because theres only one thing worse than one donkey drawing, and thats multiple donkeys drawing...after a successful isolation another 9 falls on the turn...and my what a fearless donkey this guy is, ANOTHER MIN BET...dude, seriously? i reraise AGAIN, and another snap call...river 3, he checks...for what i dont know, i even played with him, and requested time, and typed, "NICE CATCH, I KNOW YOU HAVE 56...i have trips and im checking to you because i know you have 56,why did you check??? calling the whole way to hit a 15% draw on the river?"...and i check and he flipped up 56 offsuit...i wasn't mad, heck, it made the whole table laugh as well as myself, and i walked away from the table up 3x the max buy in...

so next time you get a donkeytonk betting min at you, look at the board and figure out what draw hes on and take advantage!!! and for all you donks looking to improve your game, don't min bet...like ever, it's a weak play, and often when you do have a monster looking for action, noo-one has a hand and they fold because its just as cheap...the ONLY only time i min bet is when im heads up cash/tourney...because the pots are usually alot smaller when your only playing against one person.

gl on the felt,
Mike

[eejit101]

Lol, im sooooooooooooooo gonna disagree entirely.

Firstly, min betting works awesomely. Just TODAY i flopped the abolsute nuts, and bet the min on the flop in mid position, afte 2 checks, knowing id get callers and reraises, and that they would simply assume i would be playing top pair, or a good draw this way, to try and stem the betting before it gets mad.

Secondly, The first hand.... How the hell can you assume that range? Looking at the play from a retrospective angle, lets assign a range. Any flush draw behaves that way. ANy low kickered king does, up to and including KJ or maybe KQ. Trips plays this hand that way, your making the action come to him.

Second hand, the flop is 4 7 9. He min bets, you instantly assign 56.

If that is true, and im not being disrespectful, i just dont believe that can be possible, i will happily fly there and introduce you to any famous poker player i can meet, as you are 10x better than them at reading.

I think my strongest aspect of poker is reading, and from my posts here i know the reads i make sometimes are impressive and others have learnt and commented on them.

However this is WAY beyond anything i can read. Its technically impossible to assign a certain hand from a min bet on the flop.


If you can play me or NDN heads up, or at a cahs game, for say 25 minutes, and perfectly read a single one of our hands after the flop has come down, ill send you all my chips for a MONTH that i earn. Thats about $100.


Again, no hatred, i just think thats impossible, well i know it is

[vickid]

i totally agree with u ee but i have played heads up with ndn a few times and i have gotten great reads last time i knocked him out min raise pre flop i call i put him on pkt pair flop 484 i had 88 in my hand he check i check turn 4 he check i 2 times bet he raise i push he calls he shows 10 10 and both times i have been heads up with him i have won so dose this mean i get all ur chips for a whole month hahaha

jk and ur hard to read eejit u push all in with j2 off suit then get aces 2 hands later and kill my ace q suited hearts boooooooooooo after i was killing tourney i put u on pockets but jj or even qq not aces

[eejit101]

Lol, thats why i show what i show, you never know what i have.


And there is a HUGE difference between reading someone for a pocket pair, and reading someone for 56 suited.

Pocket pair covers 13 hands. And is normally easy to do, well, easyish. Certain hands have blatent styles...

e.g Your dealt 66 UTG+1. You limp, 5 ppl call. Someone raises to 3 x BB, your getting huge odds and implied odds, you obv call. That is normally a low pair, or some kind of suited connector/weakish ace/KQ. Thats when your flop reads come in.


56 = near impossible. I would be the first to say if that read he made is true, you should be world famous by now

[vickid]

Lol, thats why i show what i show, you never know what i have.


And there is a HUGE difference between reading someone for a pocket pair, and reading someone for 56 suited.

Pocket pair covers 13 hands. And is normally easy to do, well, easyish. Certain hands have blatent styles...

e.g Your dealt 66 UTG+1. You limp, 5 ppl call. Someone raises to 3 x BB, your getting huge odds and implied odds, you obv call. That is normally a low pair, or some kind of suited connector/weakish ace/KQ. Thats when your flop reads come in.

56 = near impossible. I would be the first to say if that read he made is true, you should be world famous by now

hahah true very true

the guy just blantley dosent know what he is talking about

[eejit101]

Edited that as it made no sense, you messed up the quote...

And he does know what he is talking about, other posts are fine, i just dont get HOW this read is possible

[kingsnthahole]

listen guys/gals, the heading of the post is WIMPS, i like to follow the rule from rounders that if you cant pick out the fishes at the table within the first like 15-20 mins, you are the fish...granted, i agree with you if flop the nuts, yes it works well, but in ONLINE poker how often do you flop the nuts? the only thing as far as tells we get, is when people flip over hands, once you see a few hands and how the person plays when theyre in a hand, i STRONGLY feel that you can put them on a pretty tight range...

with that said, the flush draw was very obvious to me...the person was a nit, and a fish...the straight draw, the reason i said if any 8,3,5, or 6 comes im folding, im giving him credit for possibly a gutshot as well as 5,6...but the way the hand played out, and the caliber player he was told me what he had on the river by the way he bet...i too value myslef on my reading abilities, and i by no means go after good players in a hand like this, as they are MUCH MUCH harder to read.

one last thing...you actually min bet with KJ(top pair, K's)???
im sorry man but thats a terrible play, with a hand like KJ, i like to bet 2/3-3/4 to see where im at in the hand...i've seen many a donk limp with AK...and i myself only limp with KQ, with multiple players who limp in front of me.

[thenutzaa1]

nice post..............which poker site were you playing on............

the only time i min bet is first to act pre flop...........i am prob. min re raising with a monster so i am hoping for a re raise...........

nice reading your table and way to finish up 3x the max buy in..........

good work

[thenutzaa1]

I would love to take that bet with you eejit................

play heads up for 25 min and call out "only" one of your hands on the flop.


i think i can get one atleast one.........

[eejit101]

Has to be an exact hand though...

[eejit101]

one last thing...you actually min bet with KJ(top pair, K's)???
im sorry man but thats a terrible play, with a hand like KJ, i like to bet 2/3-3/4 to see where im at in the hand...i've seen many a donk limp with AK...and i myself only limp with KQ, with multiple players who limp in front of me.

What? Where did i say that?????

[DINGO8MYBABY]

I'm just tired of people drawing without pot odds with a hand like K-xs or Q-xs or even J-xs which they never should have played in the first place (expecially limping in from early position Shortstacked), lucking out, and then thinking they know a damn thing. I want to bite these luckboxes, throw them in kiddie pools and shock them with cattle prods. Carbon Poker is chock full of them, and no they don't all come from Romania (though that doesn't seem to hurt).

[kingsnthahole]

i agree with you 100% dingo, however, i have found that if you keep the pots small, and give a little here and there...it sets up for you to get paid off on your big hands on Carbon...kinda like baiting a little baby with candy leading into a swimming pool, and then splash, theyre drowning...i honestly like sitting at a table knowing that i'm probably the best player there or the second best, its a psychological edge, and its a strategic edge...

for example, two days ago i 3.5bet to an unopened pot with 4c6c...and i got one caller in the BB, flop comes 3 clubs J 3 5, sweet, i flopped the flush w/ the belly to the straight flush...i bet the pot to make it look like i didn't want someone drawing to the flush...guy snap calls out of position, based on what i saw he probably had the A or K of clubs with another pair or maybe a hand like Kq offsuit with one club...anyways, turn brings a 5 of hearts, ok he could have slow played a set here but i didnt think he would have given the flop of 3 clubs, he prob would have check raised me on the flop, or bet big right off the bat...so i overbet the pot and shoved all in, HE SNAP CALLS with Ac Jd...all of his chips on a ace high flush draw with only 5 clubs that help bc of my straight flush draw, one of 2 remaining jacks, or 2 remaining 5's gives him the full house

the odds, on the flop, i'm 77% favorite to win....
on the turn im a 79.55% favorite...

and ofcourse the river is the 8 of clubs...giving him the ace high flush....im sorry but im folding that hand with just an ace high flush draw and a backdoor draw to the boat...but i would take that call all day because 8 out of ten time by the turn you know your getting doubled up if he calls...oh well, i'm still alive, i lost about 8 bucks on that pot...just another example of a bad call based on pot odds, the only way i call there is if i already have the flush or obviously if i flopped a set and turned a boat...ONLY WAY I CALL there for my whole stack...granted i didn't play the hand traditionally and kept it small, but i flopped a flush and i wanted to get paid off by a donkey...

[thenutzaa1]

i agree with you 100% dingo, however, i have found that if you keep the pots small, and give a little here and there...it sets up for you to get paid off on your big hands on Carbon...kinda like baiting a little baby with candy leading into a swimming pool, and then splash, theyre drowning...i honestly like sitting at a table knowing that i'm probably the best player there or the second best, its a psychological edge, and its a strategic edge...

for example, two days ago i 3.5bet to an unopened pot with 4c6c...and i got one caller in the BB, flop comes 3 clubs J 3 5, sweet, i flopped the flush w/ the belly to the straight flush...i bet the pot to make it look like i didn't want someone drawing to the flush...guy snap calls out of position, based on what i saw he probably had the A or K of clubs with another pair or maybe a hand like Kq offsuit with one club...anyways, turn brings a 5 of hearts, ok he could have slow played a set here but i didnt think he would have given the flop of 3 clubs, he prob would have check raised me on the flop, or bet big right off the bat...so i overbet the pot and shoved all in, HE SNAP CALLS with Ac Jd...all of his chips on a ace high flush draw with only 5 clubs that help bc of my straight flush draw, one of 2 remaining jacks, or 2 remaining 5's gives him the full house

the odds, on the flop, i'm 77% favorite to win....
on the turn im a 79.55% favorite...

and ofcourse the river is the 8 of clubs...giving him the ace high flush....im sorry but im folding that hand with just an ace high flush draw and a backdoor draw to the boat...but i would take that call all day because 8 out of ten time by the turn you know your getting doubled up if he calls...oh well, i'm still alive, i lost about 8 bucks on that pot...just another example of a bad call based on pot odds, the only way i call there is if i already have the flush or obviously if i flopped a set and turned a boat...ONLY WAY I CALL there for my whole stack...granted i didn't play the hand traditionally and kept it small, but i flopped a flush and i wanted to get paid off by a donkey...

i agree with both of you.............

I cahsed out 950 worth of chips to NDN and got 5 bucks to my carbon account....i played soo drunk one night that i tripled it to 15 bucks because i didnt care about the 5 bucks.

anyways i sat down at a heads up table with my 15 and this guy had $25 bucks.

he chased me down when i had top set with a j5 flush draw. and he hit it on the river and then pushed all in. i laughed at him and folded and showed it when i had half my stack invested.... well he said thank you to me.......


20 min later i lefted with all of his money he had on the table and he bought back in for 50 bucks.....i was laughing and said thank you and sat out.

but a lot of people do chase that flush on carbon.....i deff. agree with that.

[eejit101]

hey, kings, hang on....

What blinds are you playing at here, and whats the effective stacks??

Firstly - Raising 46suited is generally insane, yes by all means in tournaments, thats different, but in a cash game id strenuously suggest not raising that hand. Cant believe im the first person to say that but ok...


Anyways, You flop the flush. The flush you have is not the nut flush, or anywhere near it. The villain in this hand flops top pair top kicker, and the NUT flush draw. That part is key.


As of now, he has 9 outs for the flush, 3 outs for 2 pair, and 2 outs for trips.

Now, as im a genius, if i left it at that youd come back and say "but i had 2 of his club outs so he only had 7 outs, and then i have 2 of his outs as my straight flush outs". And im right!!!

HOWEVER, the villain here does not know your hand. You have have KcKh. QQ. A set. Two pair. To be honest 2 clubs is unlikely for you to be holding. Only KQc, and possibly K10/Q10.


The reason for this is the fact that you (this is just an opinion) raised preflop with a garbage hand, pays off in this case as you disguised what you hit.

And after that being said, you do realsie this is one of the ONLY flops that can possibly occur when you can stack this guy? The fact you didnt doesnt matter. Its the %'s you had when the money went in.

Im going to work this round here.... and see what you think.


(and im writing all this so bear with me if it sucks)

PokerStars Game ID123837192873187
NLHE Blinds $0.05/$0.10 6MAX Table name - blowitoutyourblowhole

Seat1: eejit101 $10
Seat2: kingsnthahole $10
Seat3: idontcare $6.55
Seat4: JessicaAlba $230
Seat5: Shootmenow $5.12
Seat6: iloveleet: $13.37
iloveleet posts the small blin $0.05
eejit101 posts the big blind $0.10
DEALT TO EEJIT101 - Ac Jd.
Kingsnthehole Raises to $0.35
Everyone else folds.
eejit101 calls $0.25
FLOP - Jc 3c 5c.
eejit101 checks
kingsnthehole bets $0.80
eejit101 calls $0.80 So far IMO im playing this fine
Turn - 5h
eejit101 checks
kingsnthehole bets $8.85 ????????????????????????? (im now assuming your not full stacked)
eejit101 calls $8.85
River 8c
eejit101 wins $19 with an Ace high flush
Kingsnthehole shows a Jack high flush.




Lets now analyze that. My read on you if i was the villain, is you have a Jack, Some kind of over pair possibly.

Summing up, i think you got paid off because the play was so...... bad? It appears you pushed all in with a hand when a possible scare card his the turn, and with draws out there, so you pushed to avoid making any decisions that are tricky. He might have a better flush, he might have quads, a boat, or trips. He might have what he has.


But think about this, if you bet $1.40 on the turn and he calls. Your still commiting him into a large pot if the turn is a safe card (as in Kh or somehting) and you can still extract value from the river, and what your NOT doing is getting all your chips in when your not even certain your ahead (im saying that as youve given us no info you had any possible reads, and calling the flop bet and preflop isnt ANY indication on what anyone holds). By pushing the turn your setting youself up to losing the biggest pot possible, and eliminating the chances of winning a larger one with alot less risk.

Wow that took ages

[vickid]

hey, kings, hang on....

What blinds are you playing at here, and whats the effective stacks??

Firstly - Raising 46suited is generally insane, yes by all means in tournaments, thats different, but in a cash game id strenuously suggest not raising that hand. Cant believe im the first person to say that but ok...


Anyways, You flop the flush. The flush you have is not the nut flush, or anywhere near it. The villain in this hand flops top pair top kicker, and the NUT flush draw. That part is key.


As of now, he has 9 outs for the flush, 3 outs for 2 pair, and 2 outs for trips.

Now, as im a genius, if i left it at that youd come back and say "but i had 2 of his club outs so he only had 7 outs, and then i have 2 of his outs as my straight flush outs". And im right!!!

HOWEVER, the villain here does not know your hand. You have have KcKh. QQ. A set. Two pair. To be honest 2 clubs is unlikely for you to be holding. Only KQc, and possibly K10/Q10.


The reason for this is the fact that you (this is just an opinion) raised preflop with a garbage hand, pays off in this case as you disguised what you hit.

And after that being said, you do realsie this is one of the ONLY flops that can possibly occur when you can stack this guy? The fact you didnt doesnt matter. Its the %'s you had when the money went in.

Im going to work this round here.... and see what you think.


(and im writing all this so bear with me if it sucks)

PokerStars Game ID123837192873187
NLHE Blinds $0.05/$0.10 6MAX Table name - blowitoutyourblowhole

Seat1: eejit101 $10
Seat2: kingsnthahole $10
Seat3: idontcare $6.55
Seat4: JessicaAlba $230
Seat5: Shootmenow $5.12
Seat6: iloveleet: $13.37
iloveleet posts the small blin $0.05
eejit101 posts the big blind $0.10
DEALT TO EEJIT101 - Ac Jd.
Kingsnthehole Raises to $0.35
Everyone else folds.
eejit101 calls $0.25
FLOP - Jc 3c 5c.
eejit101 checks
kingsnthehole bets $0.80
eejit101 calls $0.80 So far IMO im playing this fine
Turn - 5h
eejit101 checks
kingsnthehole bets $8.85 ????????????????????????? (im now assuming your not full stacked)
eejit101 calls $8.85
River 8c
eejit101 wins $19 with an Ace high flush
Kingsnthehole shows a Jack high flush.




Lets now analyze that. My read on you if i was the villain, is you have a Jack, Some kind of over pair possibly.

Summing up, i think you got paid off because the play was so...... bad? It appears you pushed all in with a hand when a possible scare card his the turn, and with draws out there, so you pushed to avoid making any decisions that are tricky. He might have a better flush, he might have quads, a boat, or trips. He might have what he has.


But think about this, if you bet $1.40 on the turn and he calls. Your still commiting him into a large pot if the turn is a safe card (as in Kh or somehting) and you can still extract value from the river, and what your NOT doing is getting all your chips in when your not even certain your ahead (im saying that as youve given us no info you had any possible reads, and calling the flop bet and preflop isnt ANY indication on what anyone holds). By pushing the turn your setting youself up to losing the biggest pot possible, and eliminating the chances of winning a larger one with alot less risk.

Wow that took ages

well that


is some sound advice

kings this was cash game eh wow

i agree with wat my eejit is saying here and sometimes i tend to listen to him when hes railing my table

but i would of half pot bet the turn and seen the river as he said he is commited to a larger pot and might have even folded who knows but the all in look like a scared move to steal the pot in my eyes and i would of called with top pair top kicker and nut flush the half pot bet would of made me think for a min but i would of called depending on how your table image was and other nonsence that happens but this is great advice and stuff i need to work on besides my spelling is not getting over commited into a pot when im unsure if i have the better hand something i am getting better at day in and day out but your advice eejit has been alot of help on the felts for me

[kingsnthahole]

.05/.10 nl 9 handed on carbon,
and the only reason i raised that was because i hadn't took a flop in two times around the table, and yes i got got crafty on him, but i know im def not bettin min on that flop with position, i wan't him to commit his stack here at all cost, thats my philosiphy, it didn't work out this time, but almost 80% to win that hand on the turn, i have no probs committing myself to that pot.