Just a side note, I understand perfectly fine that once your cards touch the muck pile your hand is DEAD, i am NOT debating this, just how it went through, this is all, I understand that if you make this mistake of mucking a wining hand too bad, its gone, but I just cant picture, once again, someone reaching for the cards on the middle of the felt after being all in pre-turn and then mucking this, its just incorrect.