New Look at a real Bad BEAT

[ANDYCRAPP]

While biding my time for a more lucrative $20/$40 Limit Hold’em game, I snagged an open seat in a $6/$12 game. Shortly after unracking my chips, I realized there was a significant amount of tension at the table, all of it between two players – the #3 seat, a young guy, mid-30s, stocky, with a crew cut, and the #9 seat, an older woman, possibly way north of the century mark; had someone handed her a broom, I would’ve grabbed Dorothy and Toto and whisked them to safety.

Seated in the center of the table, the first few hands I played felt like a ping-pong match as Crew Cut continuously spouted muttered-but-audible off-color remarks, all directed at the Wicked Witch of the West, who had absolutely no qualms about issuing verbal retaliations. Being impartial, I nevertheless gave props to the elder combatant; her replies were much more creative: “The height of your hair is a direct reflection of your IQ,” and other statements along those lines.

Eventually, curiosity got the better of me and I turned to my neighbor for enlightenment. Apparently, the bad blood began the way it usually begins at a poker table: he had a high pocket pair (in this case, queens) and she stayed in with a small pair (fours), and eventually snapped him off when she paired her kicker (an unsuited 7) on the river.

OK, **** happens, let’s move on. However, Crew Cut had no intention of letting the events of Bad Beats Past fade quietly into the night. Oh, no.

A few hands later, nearly the entire table stuck around to see the pre-raised flop (Casino Arizona is well known for ultra-live action, regardless of the game – must be the desert sun!) of K-K-A. After a bet and a call, only two were left in the hunt – yup, you guessed it: Crew Cut and the Witch (sounds like the title of the next Harry Potter novel, doesn’t it?).

Something irrelevant, an 8, I think, hit the turn and all hell broke loose. Because they were heads-up, there was no cap on raises, and the two kept coming over the top of one another as if they were playing leapfrog to the death.

The rest of us were amped by the furious action and we were all reasonably confident that a boatload of “found money” was about to land in each of our laps. Expecting to dole out some serious cash – the jackpot was around $60,000 at the time – two floormen raced over to watch the hand play out.

Crew Cut got it all in first and the pot was now somewhere in the vicinity of $500, pretty decent for a $6/$12 game. With no betting action left, and only the river to come, Crew Cut proudly flipped over his hand, pocket rockets, giving him aces full of kings, the minimum qualifier for Casino Arizona’s bad beat jackpot.

“Go ahead and beat it,” Crew Cut said antagonizingly. “Gimme a bad beat.”

A rag on the river changed nothing and all eyes turned to the old hag, now nodding her head in the affirmative. “Okey-doke,” she said, and turned over her pocket kings, giving her quads, the winning hand, and the small end of the bad beat jackpot.

Crew Cut threw up his hands in victory. “Boom!” he screamed, mentally spending his lion’s share of the jackpot, right around $30,000.

But the drama wasn’t finished yet. Before anyone could convince her otherwise, Witchy-Poo scooped up her pocket kings and held them out to her younger, wise-cracking nemesis.

“Here’s your bad beat,” she said with unflinching satisfaction and casually tossed her hand into the muck.

We were all dumbfounded – the players, the dealer, the floormen, not to mention all the lookie-loos who always run to a table when a jackpot has been declared. A chorus of “Holy ****s” (it’s the cleanest thing I can write) spread through the crowd.

As for Crew Cut, he turned more colors than a chameleon on a Twister board and collapsed heavily into his chair, mouth agape, his hands locked onto his near hairless scalp.

“Why would you do that?” he queried, mouth aquiver. “You were gonna get fifteen grand.”

“I don’t need the money,” she said with complete disdain, while racking up the remainder of her chips. “But knowing you did…” She stopped racking, stared at him and smiled wide, a grin so ****-eating, it would give a fly the chills.

To say we were all pretty pissed was a major understatement, as we were just intentionally hosed out of our players’ shares, a smidge over $2K each. But I gotta hand it to the old gal – she definitely got the last laugh, and taught that young pecker-head a valuable lesson he’ll never forget.

Yeah UNBELIVABLE

ANDY

[eejit101]

ummm, this hadn was all in on the turn you said, so the hand counts, you cant fold if your all in. So this mkaes no sense

[Borgouise]

Im sensing this being a copy/paste job, has the read of a professional writer.

[nodepositneeded]

Eejit - You can muck your cards and kill the hand anytime you'd like.

Andy - Great story. I would not have a single grudge with the old lady if I were at the table. Maybe a bit upset that I lost my table share - But I think I would get almost as much enjoyment as she did when she mucked the hand. I hate people who can't handle a beat and take the game so seriously. They simply shouldn't be playing the game.

I might very well do the same thing she did if someone got on my nerves that bad.

[Lilred36]

yeah, gotta believe thats unreal but who knows stuff happens, worded rather well though.

[eejit101]

but $30k? THIRTH THOUSAND DOLLARS.

I know your earning a billion a year, but im not

[nodepositneeded]

A lesson in life is priceless Eejit.

[Tomturkey46]

If I read the story right, according to the rules of poker, once she was all-in, THE HAND PLAYED!! regardless of what happened at the end. But she wasn't , was she. She didn't say," fold", she just showed her hand and then threw it in the muck AND didn't call. She folded her hand BUT showed it. This is, to me bad manners and the worst kind of play. Someone may clear the Air on this matter but it is Bad Manners to behave as she did

The Turkey

[nodepositneeded]

At any live cash game (at least in Minnesota where I play most often) you can much your hand at any time - Regardless of whether or not you are all-in. While it would be rare to see it happen in such a rare situation - It happens quite frequently here. Most often it will happen in lower stakes games when a husband/wife are playing together. If it is just them heads up and one is out of chips - Often times the winner will muck their hand just so that the loser gets some chips back.

[eejit101]

At any live cash game (at least in Minnesota where I play most often) you can much your hand at any time - Regardless of whether or not you are all-in. While it would be rare to see it happen in such a rare situation - It happens quite frequently here. Most often it will happen in lower stakes games when a husband/wife are playing together. If it is just them heads up and one is out of chips - Often times the winner will muck their hand just so that the loser gets some chips back.

so collusion is the name of the game in MN then huh?

[nodepositneeded]

It's not really collusion. It's just common to find buddies or relatives playing together and in a situation where it becomes just the two of them in the hand you'll see them muck winning hands from time to time. Like I said, it usually happens in lower limits where it wouldn't be worth it to collude - It happens most often so that the other player has chips to continue playing with.

[RogueAus]

That is not in the spirit of the game.... and that is also a form of cheating... regardless of how you look at it...

and what the old lady did... well she needs to take a good look at herself, because as far as I am concerned... she just lowered herself to that guys level and even worse... that was not a lesson learned by that guy... but a sorry reflection of how spiteful an old hag she was...

The only time you can muck your hand in Holdem in an all in situation heads up is when you hold the cards without revealing what they are until the hand finishes. By turning over the cards... regardless if she threw them on the muck... that hand was still live because she showed her hand... however if she mucked without revealing then that would be a muck.

If I was at that table... I would have challenged the rule of the Casino, and from a legal point of view... they do not have a leg to stand on...!!!! The casino should have done the right thing and paid out the bad beat!!!!

[venom]

“Okey-doke,” she said, and turned over her pocket kings, giving her quads, the winning hand, and the small end of the bad beat jackpot


Dont remember this post, but with her actions in that paragraph, she showed her hand, she won the pot. Doesn't matter where she throws them after showing them, now maybe if she just showed crewcut and then threw them into the muck without showing, mightbe different. But also if they are both all in on the turn, the cards should have been flipped and set on the table. I like Borgs reply, the story seems like, well a story, made up one at that, but show knows. But once she turns over her cards, the hand is over, except the dealer announcing who won the pot.

[USCTrojans]

Eejit - You can muck your cards and kill the hand anytime you'd like.

Andy - Great story. I would not have a single grudge with the old lady if I were at the table. Maybe a bit upset that I lost my table share - But I think I would get almost as much enjoyment as she did when she mucked the hand. I hate people who can't handle a beat and take the game so seriously. They simply shouldn't be playing the game.

I might very well do the same thing she did if someone got on my nerves that bad.

I just came accross this and have to give my opinion:

If the guy was already all in and the woman called his last chips before the river was dealt, then the hand is on auto showdown mode. True, she can muck her hand and say she lost, but the cards were already flipped on the table. As far asw I understand, once the cards of 2 players are turned up on the table and the river is dealt, hand is a showdown.

[USCTrojans]

“Okey-doke,” she said, and turned over her pocket kings, giving her quads, the winning hand, and the small end of the bad beat jackpot
[/QUOTE]

It can't be clearer, she "turned over her pocket kings"

I understand you NDN, if she just shows the guy and mucks its all good, guy wins hand and her hand would not count but...once she flips the cards over on the table, this hand counts anywhere from here to China!

[nodepositneeded]

Not in any poker room I have played in.

If any of my cards make it to the muck pile (whether it be face up or down) the hand is dead and my cards have been mucked. It's as simple as that.

I can lay my cards face up on the table, or show my cards to any individual player, but if I want to muck my hand after, I am free to do so.

They aren't going to go picking cards out of the muck if I fold a winning hand.

Here is a less extreme situation....

I am in a hand heads-up against another player.

I have Q9 - The other player has K10.

The board is 810JKQ.

I don't see my straight and I muck when I see that his two pair beat my pair of queens.

The players next to me both know I had the straight, but the dealer (and the floor) aren't going to dig through the muck for me to give me the winning hand.

This situation and many similar ones happen all of the time.

[USCTrojans]

Dude, the guy never said the woman threw her cards into the muck pile before turning them over.

The "turning over" or "flipping" the cards on the table constitutes a showdown.

I do understand that if she would have said like "Look I got KK but will fold it" and throws them TURNED DOWN over to the muck pile, then yeah, hand dies

But after the Crew Cut guy was ALL IN and she indeed CALLED his all in to see the river, right at that point this hand HAS to be played out at showdown.

I am sure you understand me ND.

[USCTrojans]

I don't see my straight and I muck when I see that his two pair beat my pair of queens.

Too bad, tough luck if you fold the winning hand or if you even MUCK the winning hand.

But once another player is all in and I call him and FLIP my cards, too bad, win or lose this hand plays.

I am not saying that the woman could have mucked her hand BEFORE flipping the cards, no prob and tough luck on her if she mucks a winner,. but once they said cards were FLIPPED on the table, she cant just pick em up again and throw them at the muck pile.

[USCTrojans]

“Okey-doke,” she said, and turned over her pocket kings, giving her quads, the winning hand, and the small end of the bad beat jackpot.

This my friend IS a showdown, she can NO LONGER pick up the cards again and say she lost and muck em, its NOT allowed, she has already turned her cards and won the hand.

[nodepositneeded]

Hi USC,

Perhaps in Costa Rica they have different poker rules (but I doubt that - rules are pretty universal as far as I can tell).

"“Here’s your bad beat,” she said with unflinching satisfaction and casually tossed her hand into the muck."

She mucked her hand and from that point on it was dead. To go to another extreme, they would treat this situation just like they would if a random person came by the table, picked up some cards, and ran away with them never to be seen again. Once your cards hit the muck it is a DEAD hand.

I've played my fair share of live poker and I assure you that this is accurate (in MN, WI, and NV anyways).

[USCTrojans]

Hi USC,

Perhaps in Costa Rica they have different poker rules (but I doubt that - rules are pretty universal as far as I can tell).

"“Here’s your bad beat,” she said with unflinching satisfaction and casually tossed her hand into the muck."

She mucked her hand and from that point on it was dead. To go to another extreme, they would treat this situation just like they would if a random person came by the table, picked up some cards, and ran away with them never to be seen again. Once your cards hit the muck it is a DEAD hand.

I've played my fair share of live poker and I assure you that this is accurate (in MN, WI, and NV anyways).

Very much BEFORE this second ACTION she performed this other action when CALLING the other guy's ALL IN:

“Okey-doke,” she said, and turned over her pocket kings, giving her quads, the winning hand, and the small end of the bad beat jackpot."

Sorry bro, once she turned them over means they are on the table. She cant pick em up again and shove em into the Muck pile. Costa Rica has the exact same Universal rules in poker and I can tell you she called an all in and TURNED her cards, hand is oficial!

I do understand your point (and just to show that Costa Rica has same rules in poker) that if she would have just shown the cards while HOLDING them and then throws it into the muck, YES, YOU ARE RIGHT, SHE MUCKED THE HAND!!!

But sorry again ND, once she TURNED her cards on the table the secondary action of picking up the cards again and throwing them to the muck is unacceptable and unexistent in poker.

[nodepositneeded]

What she did was perfectly fine and the result is a dead hand (thus making the hand bad beat ineligible).

[USCTrojans]

What she did was perfectly fine and the result is a dead hand (thus making the hand bad beat ineligible).

I thought the action of turning your cards on the table was considered the end...didn't know you could pick up your cards afterwards and then throw them into the muck...but ok, lol

[nodepositneeded]

You can throw your cards into the muck whenever you'd like.

It doesn't take much to nullify a bad beat jackpot, and if this little old lady picked up her cards and tossed them into the muck, that would absolutely nullify the bad beat.

[USCTrojans]

Well, I have never seen a Live Bad Beat Jackpot or any of its rules so I´ll give you this one ND. But, once again, if I put my cards on the table after I have called another person´s all in, then I do believe the hand counts.