Hand for discussion

[eejit101]

Remebered i saved this from a while ago, forgot to post it.

No reads, as its rush, no notes, and im short as i chose to be!

Table Mercury - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:55:53 ET
Seat 1: 4yxonec ($67.80)
Seat 2: Journeyman54 ($69.20)
Seat 3: lakrmix ($50)
Seat 4: p4ddy ($47.75)
Seat 5: NeverWin3 ($63.80)
Seat 6: JohnnyStecch1no ($56.10)
Seat 7: JakDuAce ($18.50)
Seat 8: 1848fan ($124.45)
Seat 9: jujubee85 ($28.65)
1848fan posts the small blind of $0.25
jujubee85 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to jujubee85 [Ts Td]
4yxonec folds
Journeyman54 folds
lakrmix has 8 seconds left to act
lakrmix folds
p4ddy folds
NeverWin3 raises to $1.50
JohnnyStecch1no folds
JakDuAce folds
1848fan folds
jujubee85 calls $1
*** FLOP *** [2d 9d Th]
jujubee85 checks
NeverWin3 bets $3
jujubee85 raises to $7.15
NeverWin3 calls $4.15
*** TURN *** [2d 9d Th] [As]
jujubee85 bets $5
NeverWin3 calls $5
*** RIVER *** [2d 9d Th As] [5d]
jujubee85 checks
NeverWin3 bets $6
jujubee85 raises to $15, and is all in
NeverWin3 calls $9
***SHOWDOWN***

blah blah blah


Ill post my thoughts later, but I figured the turn is the biggest discussion point.

[PANAMHIEST]

Either you lost to aaces, won against 99, or possibly lost to a odd flush, but i doubt it, i think it was the aces. But hey what can you do when you hit the nut flop?

[TerpZone]

Uh...what? That hand played itself.

[klinkman]

I'd make a bigger check raise on the flop myself. Barreling the turn after check-raising the flop seems super standard, but I think I want to bet bigger there too. You're not giving him the right price to chase though, so maybe the size is fine. With no reads I'm tempted to block/fold on the river instead of check raising all in. I really feel like there are some flush draws in his range, Axdd seems really likely.

[ScareCrowAKA]

Qd Jd? If I think I can bet him off it after the turn I make a over the pot size bet. If I dont, I check call to see the river as cheap as possible... either way Im pretty much folding when the Diamond or King hits... If it turns out to be Aces, I just lose... If I Chose to play it like you I would have bet 10$ after the turn instead of 5... His value bet on the end pretty much gives the flush away.

[eejit101]

He snap called with 7d 4d

[PANAMHIEST]

He snap called with 7d 4d

now thats about typical, im not sure you could of got him off it then

[ScareCrowAKA]

lol... I havn't even been playing online for all that long and that doesnt really surprise me... would suspect it when he just called you down the whole way... only chance to get him off of it is to shove after the turn... but thats ballsy

[eejit101]

Not really, i was worried about AA, I bet the smallish amount to generate a shove from Ax or KK-JJ if possible. If he flat calls i was goping to check call the river, then decided to shove.

[ScareCrowAKA]

see to me I wouldnt have thought AA cuz I would figure he would guard against the flush draw when he hit trips on the turn... or guarded against the flush, over cards, or the straight draw on the flop if he had JJ QQ KK

[PANAMHIEST]

if the dude is gonna snap call a raise before the flop with 74dd then land the draw, he isnt gonna fold

[ScareCrowAKA]

I think alot of players online will see a flop w suited cards hoping to catch a flush draw, but will back off to an all in after the turn when they only have one draw left to catch

[eejit101]

I was tempted to reraise preflop.

thoughts on that?

[ScareCrowAKA]

A big raise might have got him off, looks like he was just hoping to see the flop for a buck or 2 to try and flop the flush draw... I think a big raise pre-flop or on the turn could have got him off... a raise of any size on the flop, He calls... and If he calls a big raise pre-flop, Hes calling any raise on the flop, and then that probably makes it worth while to chase on the river

[ffcowboy76]

After looking over the hand I was leaning toward A's, but had a strange feeling about some form of a weak flush draw. Looking at the odds of the hand might lead to some insight about the call the other player made. He can open raise from late with a wide range of hands. That is a very standard play in rush cash game to open raise with any hand you want to play. The hero's action preflop can be three things, flat, 3 bet, or fold. T's are not that strong so on a readless game I think flatting is the best play but an argument can be made for 3 betting. I think it is really close between 3 betting and flatting and obviously folding is out. On the flop there is 3.25 in the pot before any rake is taken.

On the flop your opponent makes a larger than normal continuation bet after a check by the hero. You are looking to c-bet around 1/2 to 2/3 the pot. His bet puts $6.25 in the pot before any rake. The hero decides to establish some display of strength by check raising the opponent and seeing what he does. This is a perfectly normal and acceptable play, but the sizing is WAY small. You raise to $7.15 with puts $13.35 in the pot and making him call $4.15 to see the turn. He was getting a touch over 3 to 1 on his money. If he figures you for a non suited hand he knows that if his flush hits he stacks you hard. There for his call on the flop isn't that bad when you consider both the odds and the implied odds.

On the turn you and your opponent do not improve, but a semi scary card hit. Looking at the action I don't see AA as being in the hand, but do see AK-Ax suited being there as well as AKo and AQo. I don't expect to see K's or Q's at showdown as I would expect a 4 bet on the flop to protect against the flush draws. With that decided I think we need to bet about 2/3 the pot to almost pot. This will reduce his odds and make his call a mistake. After his flop call there was $17.50 in the pot before rake. By betting $5 he is getting over 4 to 1 to make the call on the turn. This is again justified by both the pot and implied odds offered by our hero.

When the third diamond comes on the river I think the ONLY action is to check/call. The general hand range we have him on is something suited or AK, AQ. The only two hands you beat are AK and AQ. I think if we are going to shove we do it first not via check raise. The ONLY hands that call you are hands that will beat you. You have established strength on multiple streets and then show weakness when the flush comes in. Your opponent then can deduce that you do not have the flush and that his weak flush is good. He bets and then you give him EXACTLY what he wanted in the implied odds and you stack off.

Very crappy outcome for a good hand, but hopefully you see that you did yourself in by allowing him the odds to call and fish for the flush. I've learned through experience that if you THINK the flush might be out there, then bet it where they are making the mistake by calling and fishing. You make most of your money when your opponent makes a mistake and lose most of your money when you make the mistake.

[eejit101]

absolutely! I knew i played it like ****. did you never think he had a lower set?

[ffcowboy76]

Due to the fact that flopping a set is so low, I very rarely give thought to an under set when I set. This is a minor loss of value as he will likely want to push the action on the flop more times than not. However, this is something to give credit to if we do not flop a set and the betting rolls off like it did.

I've found a trend starting where more and more people are either making a small raise or calling one to see a flop with either suit connectors or suited semi connectors. I've also seen an increase in the number of weak suited A's entering raised pots. I've also noticed a large number of people calling with flush draws without the odds.

The easiest way to make money playing poker is to make sure you make the fewest number of mistakes in comparison to your opponents. The biggest mistake made by the largest number of players is calling with draws without the odds. This means that we, as hopefully the better players, need to learn to slowdown when the flush comes in and some one check called to the river.

[eejit101]

I love you cowboy

[klinkman]

Cowboy, do you ever consider blocking this river? I definitely agree that we need to make a bigger bet on the turn, but against unobservant opponents, can we not block the river and find out if he hit the flush or not? Seems like that might save us money when he hits, and possibly makes us money from hands that might check behind.

[eejit101]

Yeah, but with the measly $15 i have left, can we really fold?

[PANAMHIEST]

Yeah, but with the measly $15 i have left, can we really fold?

What you do preflop is gonna directly reflect what happens postflop. You gotta ask yourself, is this gonna be a good enough bet to keep out the drawing hands? What could they be thinking? Aggression is the key factor here. Always be aggressive, in position, to take those lil pots and cushion the loses to pots like these, and hopefully eliminate some of those bad beats as well.

[ffcowboy76]

Based on stack sizes there is nothing we can do to block him from betting. If we lead out there is a 99% chance that he 3 bets us all in, putting the pressure back on us. The problem with this hand started on the flop when we check raised to lite. The easiest way to win this hand is to 3 bet bigger on the flop when we have a made hand and he is still drawing to a flush. I think if we check raise to $14 instead of $7 we don't allow him the odds to draw, there by making a call from him a mistake.

Let's replay the hand with a raise to $14 on the flop vs the raise to $7.15. On the flop there is $3.25 in the pot, we check and he bets $3. Pot is now $6.25. We bump it to $14 which makes the pot $20.25 and he has to call $11 to see the turn, knowing we are more than likely jamming on the turn with the large pot and our shorter stack. He is 4 to 1 to hit a diamond on the turn and only getting 1.8ish to 1 to call on the flop. This makes a call on the flop a mistake by him.

[ffcowboy76]

What you do preflop is gonna directly reflect what happens postflop. You gotta ask yourself, is this gonna be a good enough bet to keep out the drawing hands? What could they be thinking? Aggression is the key factor here. Always be aggressive, in position, to take those lil pots and cushion the loses to pots like these, and hopefully eliminate some of those bad beats as well.

I don't see a problem with flatting preflop with T's. There are too many hands he could hold that can call a 3 bet with that we are flipping with. We are basically set mining here and don't want to invest too much preflop incase we don't flop a set and overs come. Like I posted above, I think the biggest mistake came when we actually hit our set and didn't bet it hard enough to knock out the draws.

[PANAMHIEST]

ya i agree ya get max value out of your made hands, either by making the draws fold and winning, or running into the occasional letdown. Most times betting proper will win you pots. Its a hard hard game to master, but get what you can when you can with those made situations.

[ffcowboy76]

Hopefully people will see this hand for what it is. It is a great learning experience that was paid for by someone else. The biggest thing to take from this hand is that when you have a made hand, try to take it down and win it.