Best Discussion Hand EVER. (Reply or Die)

Ok, background.

This is the FTOPS Main Event. Players are currently tight but betting flops with whatever they have.

The opponent here is pretty tight preflop, plays a hand an orbit if that.

No notes on him. No notes on anyone as i dont keep them, i knew what they had most of the time.

Ill post the hand here, then break it down in a reply with my thoughts after I get some replies tonight.

This is basically a test of your poker knowledge as to why I played it like I did. Think laterally, "outside the box" and maybe youll learn something, maybe you wont.

Please agree, disagree, mock me, love me, whatever you want.

Ill give REP like mad for good replies.



Full Tilt Poker Game #14833752438: MiniFTOPS Main Event (97436905), Table 1352 - 1700/3400 Ante 400 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:48:02 ET - 2009/09/20
Seat 1: X_CONZ4040 (86,826)
Seat 2: seiwertsystem (110,423)
Seat 3: Dic561 (73,770)
Seat 4: eejit101 (116,472)
Seat 5: mpetoxeros (46,043)
Seat 6: magicorlando (100,652)
Seat 7: highlite11 (84,646)
Seat 8: LadyInsa (16,970)
Seat 9: Workhorse05 (91,323)
X_CONZ4040 antes 400
seiwertsystem antes 400
Dic561 antes 400
eejit101 antes 400
mpetoxeros antes 400
magicorlando antes 400
highlite11 antes 400
LadyInsa antes 400
Workhorse05 antes 400
Workhorse05 posts the small blind of 1,700
X_CONZ4040 posts the big blind of 3,400
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to eejit101 [6h 6d]
seiwertsystem folds
Dic561 folds
eejit101 raises to 11,022
mpetoxeros folds
magicorlando folds
highlite11 folds
LadyInsa folds
Workhorse05 calls 9,322
X_CONZ4040 has 15 seconds left to act
X_CONZ4040 folds
*** FLOP *** [2s Qd Ts]
Workhorse05 has 15 seconds left to act
Workhorse05 bets 10,000
eejit101 has 15 seconds left to act
eejit101 calls 10,000
*** TURN *** [2s Qd Ts] [Jc]
Workhorse05 has 15 seconds left to act
Workhorse05 bets 11,000
eejit101 raises to 25,000
Workhorse05 calls 14,000
*** RIVER *** [2s Qd Ts Jc] [9d]
Workhorse05 has 15 seconds left to act
Workhorse05 bets 17,000
eejit101 has 15 seconds left to act
eejit101 folds
Uncalled bet of 17,000 returned to Workhorse05
Workhorse05 shows [Jh Jd] three of a kind, Jacks
Workhorse05 wins the pot (99,044)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 99,044 | Rake 0
Board: [2s Qd Ts Jc 9d]
Seat 1: X_CONZ4040 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: seiwertsystem folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Dic561 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: eejit101 folded on the River
Seat 5: mpetoxeros folded before the Flop
Seat 6: magicorlando folded before the Flop
Seat 7: highlite11 folded before the Flop
Seat 8: LadyInsa (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Workhorse05 (small blind) collected (99,044)

Note - Please look at the comparative chip stacks on the river as for the play I made.

Also note how i played it and other things. I had plans.

Am I missing something? He made a silly bet considering the board, but he was ahead and you couldn't have made a bluff at it because of his bet before you.

first thing i noticed is you were behind preflop here. ok that being said you dont get enough info preflop here. yes you raised around 4 times the big blind here and this dude smoothed called you here. he does not have AA's or KK's b/c he would most likely re raise. ok so i put him AK, QQ-99. that being said you have no chance on that flop. easy fold for me.

Now i think you could have min raised here then he would re raised you here and you could of made an advance play and re re raised and you might of got a fold by him and take down a nice pot with out showing your cards. if he calls your re re raise then a shove on the flop or a pot size bet would get him to fold and you take even a bigger pot. i would not make this play until all donks were gone, which is around this level.

ok now how you played it. after rereading you played this very well to make it seem like you had AK here which he is beat on the turn and should of folded to your value re raise on the turn. however you did not cont. with it a re raise on the river to finish off that you had AK. you made the choice that he was not letting his hand go and you prob saved yourself some chips.

Pretty much spot on Nutz.

The reason i cant Raise the river is his bet amount.

He had approx 25-35k behind. I had him covered obviously.

IF he had 50k behind or mroe i can get him off this easily. But with 100k int he pot already, and my $50k going in, is he really going to fold a set here with 6-1 pot odds on the call?

HE is already in the money.

I shuda done it anyway to see, as the difference in chips to me is nothing, i can come back from that low usually.

I dont even have to have AK ont he turn, i played it so it looked like a draw or AK. When the 9 hit i smiled.

I knew FOR A FACT he didnt have it, as 2 of the railers who i was chatting to will verify. But i just couldnt bet the river.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thenutzaa1

. however you did not cont. with it a re raise on the river to finish off that you had AK. you made the choice that he was not letting his hand go and you prob saved yourself some chips.

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The guy bet before eejit could act on the river, and he did so with enough chips to guarantee if eejit raised then he would have called for pot odds alone. By the river, it was apparent eejit had to have the best hand to win the pot as a reraise would have done no good.

He did kinda agree, by saying he wouldnt let it go at the end.

And i knew he wouldnt. Grrr.

This pot cost me a top 100 place IMO.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

He did kinda agree, by saying he wouldnt let it go at the end.

And i knew he wouldnt. Grrr.

This pot cost me a top 100 place IMO.

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When he made that bet on the river, he had to call. That river bet had to be over 50% of his remaining stack, and so you couldn't have pushed that much over him, and definitely not enough to push him out. You would have been much better off in this hand if you were in early position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TerpZone

The guy bet before eejit could act on the river, and he did so with enough chips to guarantee if eejit raised then he would have called for pot odds alone. By the river, it was apparent eejit had to have the best hand to win the pot as a reraise would have done no good.

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i know but if eejit re raised his river bet the guy has to make a choice here. he would have rough 30,000 behind him if eejit puts him all in here. he still can fold and last a little longer with blinds only being 3400, the guy would have roughly 10 bb left and still can do damage here. or come back.

two things needed to happen here eejit would needed to snap shove his reraise and the guy has to be a good poker player to realize that he is behind by ak or qq or k9 but everyone knows eejit could have k9.

i do agree that eejit made a nice laydown here.

Nah, i was tight as hell in this game.

Id have put me on AK/KK.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

Nah, i was tight as hell in this game.

Id have put me on AK/KK.

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when i first read this i put you had ak with that bet on the turn....

First of all, i like the 11,022 bet on the flop. Its a weird number, and i find it usually throws people off of your hand. Herego the smooth call with the jj on the SB, instead of a raise. Now like nutz said, any big hand like aa or kk would rerase u there (id even think about moving with qq or ak being as though u said everyones in the money). So already by the flop, hes on his heels and u are the agressor. PLus as far as im concerned, being behind on the flop is NBD. I dont care how big ur hand is vs someone elses; you got three cards comin; a good flop can make the worst preflop hand look like gold.

So the flop comes, he takes some time and bets about half the pot. Now, just callin here definately makes it look like you have ak. If youre NOT going to throw a re-raise at him after his flop bet, then you have to be "playing" AK. I think that if u put in a big raise here he would have to fold, but youre only lookin at a pair of sixes, so its kinda tough. So you just call him...

turn card is horrible for your set up bluff. No matter what you raise here, therse still a chance he could call. Hes got fourth nuts with a boat redraw; so i think he would have had to put u on AK to fold, even so, hes in the money, hes got a set, he probably wouldnt.

Now the river comes, and like you said, his river bet makes it so that if you push him, he would have to call because he has so few chips. If he had a bigger stack behind him, the play would've had a better chance of working.

So basically to sum up, you had the right read that you couldve pushed him off the hand from the beginning, but the way the cards, and the chip counts were; there was nothing you couldve done. there were a lot of variables going AGAINST you making a play there as the hand progressed.

Its easy to say what i wouldve done knowing the hands and the cards and everything. i think your best option there, is reraising him big on the flop, represent a big pair, and dont let any cards hit thatll make him more likely to come along. You gotta figure that this guy just flat called your raise, and then put in a less than half size pot bet on the flop. thats a feeler bet, if he had something big, he doesnt want you coming along for only 10k, and theres only a straight draw on the board, so its almost impossible that he could call ur re-raise all in with a draw. I say represent a big pair there, and try to take down the pot before any more cards come down. Once that turn came, the set-up bluff was dead in the water. Youre making the plays and the read you gotta make to win those big tourneys, but the cards and the chip stacks jsut werent with ya.

Good job btw too :-)

-0max

well i watched the whole thing and was chatting with eejit on aim and i thought it was funny. but yeah it did cost him alot of chips. but he said bfore the flop he was gonna make a move with 66 and flop was bad so he tried continuation bet and that didnt work but at least he was able to get away with it like other people i know. lol it was a great ride i think i railed him for at least all day. lol i dont want to comment. i know your logic behind it.

I love GloBug.

When i win something over $500 soon, Glo is getting laid! I mean paid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

I love GloBug.

When i win something over $500 soon, Glo is getting laid! I mean paid.

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omg get laid by someone other than my wife. wow well it is usually palmellla but shes been busy. i love u to eejit. great convo yesterday i enjoyed it.

See, told you AIM works!

Shame its not MSN, but we will get you there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

See, told you AIM works!

Shame its not MSN, but we will get you there.

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yeah i just didnt want to downlaod anything and aim works good as i can use it with out downlaod. thanks eejit

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GloBug

yeah i just didnt want to downlaod anything and aim works good as i can use it with out downlaod. thanks eejit

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if you're running Windows XP, you should have Windows Messenger preinstalled.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TerpZone

if you're running Windows XP, you should have Windows Messenger preinstalled.

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really i dont see it. well illl look around more.

you made it outta there and lost the minimum...he seemed like a solid opponent and you attempted to steal by smooth calling flop and raising the turn when he shows weakness....good decision but he kept betting out and i would have folded too, on the river...if he gives you an inch you take a mile, but if he keeps betting out why tangle with a big stack and try to bluff when you can just sit back and wait...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GloBug

really i dont see it. well illl look around more.

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C > Program Files > Messenger > msmsgs.exe

Interesting hand.
I don't really like the way you played it (it's hard to be objective since I already know what villain had).

If your opponent is playing as tight as you mentioned, I think you're going to have a hard time getting him off a hand in this type of situation.
He called your raise out of the SB and then bet in to you on the flop. So, you can be pretty sure he has something.
So, I think you chose a bad situation to float. I'd prefer to do it against someone looser who could've called from the SB with a wider range and could be making a move on that flop.

If you had raised on the flop while the pot was still small, maybe you would've gotten him off the hand. Instead, you decided to float and J was the worst possible turn card for you.
However, even if a blank comes on the turn, I think he either keeps betting or check calls you.
An ace on the flop would've helped your cause and I think you could win the pot on the flop or turn if you put in a bet/raise (provided he doesn't hit the set).

I think villain played the hand pretty well. The only thing I don't quite understand is why he simply called your raise on the turn instead of reraising but on the next street decided to make a bet anyway.
We're already assuming that he is never folding on the river with so much money in the pot. So, if he's decided to give you another chance to bluff or bet in to him with a weaker hand (like top pair, or 2 pair), I think it would've made more sense to check call on the river.
Maybe he thinks you would check behind if you don't have a K but pay him off if you have some sort of made hand weaker than his 3 of a kind.

well for everyone at that point in the tourney eejit was dreading having to go to work in 4 hours and was bored and we all know how that goes. maybe eejit u should have sat out and seen what happened like u said. i bet you get into the top 100.

Lol, I was literally dying.

I wanted to take a risk early than basically mooch about for a couple more hours getting dealt crap.

So i did. And i lost. Then after losing, i tried to grind and gave uop:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

Pretty much spot on Nutz.

The reason i cant Raise the river is his bet amount.well yeah that and the fact you had nothing ..or did that not cross your mind.

He had approx 25-35k behind. I had him covered obviously.You had 25k not even close to 35k so why put that there u were 25k

I dont even have to have AK ont he turn, i played it so it looked like a draw or AK. When the 9 hit i smiled.I see that u did this and can see the bluff u were creating...but why bet so much preflop with 66

I knew FOR A FACT he didnt have it, as 2 of the railers who i was chatting to will verify. But i just couldnt bet the river.

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lol...ok well thats some consolation for you....feel better? jk you played the hand wrong you tried to make something of a bluff and his trips made him un movable. I say good for the jacks. but I'm sentimental like that.

Umm..

IMO i played the hand fine if he doesnt bet the river like a noob. The purpose of the entire hand after the flop call was to take it ont he river.

The turn bet left him with 35k, and me with 75k. Where is your maths!

And I dont care if he should of won, i can take the hand with crap by setting up a perfect play if he doesnt price himself in

eejit I love the play you attempted to make. I think you would of been alot more successful with a larger bet on the turn. If you really had AK and put him on the set you would be doing everything to push him off the hand right there. He has 9 outs to beat your "straight" with a boat. You only basically min raised him on the turn when you "hit your straight," which isn't what you would normally do and I think he picked up on it. I think at that point you should of raised it up to 43k and make him really thing about what you might have.

I think if you make that move, I think you pick up the pot on the turn and you can show the huge bluff and use it to your advantage for future action.

I dont.

this guy isnt a huge game player, i looked.

If i raised the turn he would think AA/KK/AK i reckon, and hed call on the set he had thinking im either good or I have the shove odds to basically give me the 9 outs i need.

Something similar. But he bet the river which is a strange move, so I dont think he is skilled enough to even think about laying down a set of Jacks here.

thoughts?

Just limp yours 66 next time..

I think He did a huge bluff since there was a Q on the board.
So.. If u would go kamikase and goes all-in he would fold. Or he could have a read on you and just call for the luck river.

Or maybe just fold your 66 next time.
U probably thought he had mad a straight so he mad a good play with that bet.. u could not call. So, if u have a middle or low pair, if u dont get a set on the flop and dangerous cards come on the board.. just fold..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

I dont.

this guy isnt a huge game player, i looked.

If i raised the turn he would think AA/KK/AK i reckon, and hed call on the set he had thinking im either good or I have the shove odds to basically give me the 9 outs i need.

Something similar. But he bet the river which is a strange move, so I dont think he is skilled enough to even think about laying down a set of Jacks here.

thoughts?

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Once he hits the set, I don't think you are ever getting a fold with any betting pattern on the turn.
I doubt anyone but a very strong player considers folding a set on the turn with this board.
I think you'd need the board to show 4 to a str8 or flush before someone would fold a set. How likely is it for you to have a str8 on the turn? I'd say it is at most a 20% chance (probably lower) which is not nearly high enough to even consider folding.

Once the 9 on the river comes, he has too much money in the pot and wouldn't fold. Maybe if a K had come and you could make an ace high str8 he'd consider it as there is at least a good chance you have an ace. But, the 9 on the river is a lot less threatening. He's not going to think you have an 8 because there is no hand you could've stayed in with and raised the turn that contains an 8. So the Q high str8 is out. Furthermore, there are not that many hands with a king you could have. You could have KK, maybe KQ (but that seems unlikely because why would you raise the turn with top pair K kicker? You hand is too weak for that).
You could have AK or K9 but then you would've already made a str8 on the turn (which he doesn't think you have because he stayed in the hand) and anyway, if you have one of those hands, the 9 changes nothing.

The only other possibility is that your small raise gave him odds to call the turn and try to hit a full house. However, once he bets the river, he is obviously not prepared to check fold even though the board didn't pair.

In my mind, the only time you had a chance to win this pot was on the flop (see my previous post if you're interested).

Also, as I mentioned, I don't agree with his river bet either. I don't know if I'd call it a noob bet but I don't think it accomplishes a whole lot.

Its either a stupid bet that commits himself, or a genius bet and he knew what i had. Im predicting the former.

ferengi - i read your last post and think i shoulda raised the flop.

Navuta - The other guy showed JJ

Ya see, it really comes down to this. If you hit a set with your 66, then you would have three 6's and then youd be the devil. So, whenever you have a 6 or an opportunity to hit trip 6s (or even if u have hit em) you gotta fold em. God would want u to.


Now trip 5's.... stay with em always :-p
-0max

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

Its either a stupid bet that commits himself, or a genius bet and he knew what i had. Im predicting the former.

ferengi - i read your last post and think i shoulda raised the flop.

Navuta - The other guy showed JJ

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I know.. I was meaning before the end of the hand off course..
What about my + rep for my brilhant comment??
:grouphug:

Just for the fact that you asked me to rep you, means i now wont.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eejit101

Just for the fact that you asked me to rep you, means i now wont.

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ya right...
And now im sad... No more rep + for me?
never?
ever?
hummmmmm
:angelsad2::angelsad2::angelsad2:

EVIL EEJIT!!

Hey.. I deserve a rep...
Since I love u, And I love the fact that U and your Jen being toguether...
---------
:seeya: Hi Jen... Make EEjit as happy as possible please.. We all need him here very happy...

Make him go back to his previous works.. I think he was happier there...

Seriously, asking for rep makes me want to choke you.

If you never asked youd get alot more.

Shame i cant rep myself.

Post in this thread to get entry into a freeroll on March 10th!!