If a card (or hand) touches the muck pile before the hand is awarded, the card (or hand) is considered dead. There really is no debate here, as that is the rule. It is her hand, she mucked it, she loses.
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If a card (or hand) touches the muck pile before the hand is awarded, the card (or hand) is considered dead. There really is no debate here, as that is the rule. It is her hand, she mucked it, she loses.
Thanks Borgo. USC you were putting up such a hard fight that you had me doubting my poker knowledge, how dare you!
I've never been involved in a bad beat myself, but I have been playing next to many tables that have hit the bad beat. The floor rushes to the table and they have surveillance replay the hand over and over until they are 100% sure it's a legit bad beat. If a player (like the old lady) were to throw their cards in the muck, the hand would be dead and that would be the end of that.
It takes about an hour around here for them to award the bad beat and pay everyone.
On a side note, does anyone else spell "much" when they are trying to spell "muck?" I swear 99% of the time I try to say "muck" I put "much" and have to change it.
I do that myself ND, and as well I have never seen a Bad Beat live, unless you count this years wsop.
Borgo, let me tell you what I see on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgouise
1)She calls the other guy´s all in.
2)She turns over her cards after calling an all in.
3)She then wins the hand and picks up the cards and throws them into the muck?
How is that action possible? Once you flip your cards the DEALER takes the 4 cards, 2 from you and 2 from the oponent and lays them on the MIDDLE of the table. Are you telling me this woman was able to reach into the middle of the table, pick up the cards, throw them into the muck and automaticaly lose the hand?
I really dont think this is possible. Yeah if she had her cards on her hands the WHOLE time (taking it that she NEVER turned them over as turning the cards over mean explicitly to do it on the felt) and she decided to muck a wining hand then it is CORRECT.
As soon as the dealer puts the cards in the middle then the hand plays out. Simple, this is how I see it and I can not picture anyone picking up the cards from the middle of the table and then throwing them into the muck....
Just a side note, I understand perfectly fine that once your cards touch the muck pile your hand is DEAD, i am NOT debating this, just how it went through, this is all, I understand that if you make this mistake of mucking a wining hand too bad, its gone, but I just cant picture, once again, someone reaching for the cards on the middle of the felt after being all in pre-turn and then mucking this, its just incorrect.
Where I have played (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Nevada) the situation you describe would never happen in a cash game (and would be very unlikely to happen in a tournament either).
When a player is all-in, they rarely flip their cards over. In most cases, they don't flip their cards over unless they win the hand (otherwise they just muck).
Even in the cases where they choose to flip their cards over before the rest of the hand plays out, the dealer would never grab both hands and bring them to the center of the table. The hand would remain in front of the player.
However, even if the dealer did bring both hands to the center of the table, the hand still belongs to the player and they have the right to muck their hand whenever they would like to.
It's really quite simple. If a player wants to muck their hand they can (at any time) and once the hand hits the muck, it's dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodepositneeded
Well, here is where we then contradict my friend, on ALL LIVE play down here once you are all in and get called cards are flipped over by both or as many players in the hand. The only time action continues is when its a multi player pot with others still playing.
Once again, Live Cash game or Live Tournament down here the rule is once you are ALL IN and no more action is left you HAVE to flip the cards.
You know, online you can go back to HH and check what cards others had. This ONLY happens when the hand goes to showdown correct?
Same in live play, how can I, as a player who was NOT in the hand know what cards my oponent had on a hand that went to showdown? Well the ONLY way is to have the cards flipped as soon as no more action will follow.
Now how can I, again, as a player who was dealt into the hand but who folded, know what cards they all had at showdown?
Do you get what I mean?
It is supposed to be my right, as a player dealt into the hands at the table, to be able to see (if this is my decision) what hand someone who went to showdown had. Its pure game etiquete.
Absolutely. You have the right to see your opponents cards if you paid to see them (or if there were no bets and the hand went to a showdown and your opponent(s) mucked).
In this case, you would ask the dealer to see your opponents hand (if it wasn't shown already).
I'm not arguing with you there, nor did I ever say that wasn't the case.
The point is, the little old lady had every right to muck her hand and the hand was dead (even if she was all-in) when the hand hit the muck.
Ok, yeah, I agree to that if the lady still held the cards on her hand.
But after calling the all in and flipping the cards over and placing them on the table and dealing the river are you able to pick up the cards and muck them?
This is what's got me confused. If you are telling me this woman NEVER let the cards go off her hand, and showed them HOLDING on to them and then THREW them into the muck pile, OK, then there was nothing wrong, but what I see as wrong is if she flipped the cards and then picked them up off the table and threw them away into the muck.
Do you get my standing point of view here? LOL
Yes she can. It's still her hand isn't it? She is free to muck her hand at anytime (until the pot is awarded as Borgo mentioned).
And in the case of awarding a bad beat jackpot, the little old lady would have plenty of time to grab her cards and muck them!
LMFAO ok lets end this. Never heard of anyone being able to pick up a hand from the table and then muck it, thought you could muck yur hand before turning the cards on the table but not taht you could play out the hand and then pick em up and say "i dont wanna win this hand" and muck em, LOLQuote:
Originally Posted by nodepositneeded
Hello:)
NDN is right. He is always right. You will learn my man
LOLOL I shall attempt to do this once in my life, I'll let you guys know if my hands got cut off afterwards!Quote:
Originally Posted by eejit101
NDN is right. I can flip my cards on the table, the dealer acknowledges your hand and then you muck it. I've watched people muck their bb preflop. Dealers can't say ANYTHING to you about how to play your hand. Another way to screw up a hand, is to muck your hand onto an unprotected hand. Then both hands are mucked. That is why if you play live, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS cover your cards with a chip, dog, frog, or other trinket.
exactly!! and be delibrate no need to rush things,thats when mistakes happen.
Yeah, that is why you should order an NDN Chip to use it as your card protector!!! :)