Love this flop? Or hate this flop?

PokerStars Game #25238015895: Tournament #142858079, $0.25+$0.00 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (30/60) - 2009/02/22 16:02:43 ET
Table '142858079 7' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: dredfish (1145 in chips)
Seat 2: he 7 (1590 in chips)
Seat 4: ronxito (12000 in chips)
Seat 5: Johnnyka19 (3310 in chips)
Seat 6: a6packer (2625 in chips)
Seat 7: $o$ucce$$ful (2090 in chips)
Seat 8: Csyck Chief (295 in chips)
Seat 9: terryj75 (3055 in chips)
ronxito: posts small blind 30
Johnnyka19: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to $o$ucce$$ful [Jd Ts]
a6packer: folds
$o$ucce$$ful: raises 180 to 240
Csyck Chief: folds
ronxito said, "ty"
terryj75: folds
dredfish: folds
he 7: raises 180 to 420
ronxito: folds
Johnnyka19: folds
$o$ucce$$ful: calls 180
*** FLOP *** [8s Th 9h]
$o$ucce$$ful: bets 1670 and is all-in
he 7: calls 1170 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (500) returned to $o$ucce$$ful
*** TURN *** [8s Th 9h] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [8s Th 9h Kc] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
$o$ucce$$ful: shows [Jd Ts] (two pair, Tens and Nines)
he 7: shows [Ah Ad] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
he 7 collected 3270 from pot

I hate this flop everytime. You have a pair of tens with an average kicker. On top of that, your opponent could have the JQ and you are drawing to a split pot at best. I'm curious why you raised with JT off from early position with the stack you had? When you got reraised preflop, what did you consider your opponent to have or did you not think about that?

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Originally Posted by ffcowboy76

I hate this flop everytime. You have a pair of tens with an average kicker. On top of that, your opponent could have the JQ and you are drawing to a split pot at best. I'm curious why you raised with JT off from early position with the stack you had? When you got reraised preflop, what did you consider your opponent to have or did you not think about that?

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Put him on a hand like AK or AQ and wanted to see a flop. Started off trying tos teal the blinds. Anyways that flop i LOVED because those were the hands i put him on. even if he did have a hand like KK or AA ( like he did) i would have outs. any J 10 7 or Q....so i was willing to gamble.

In my honest opinion, I think the better play was to limp preflop, you are in too early a position to try to steal. When he raises, make a decision based on how much he raised. On the flop your push tells me that you missed the flop, even though I know you didn't. You bet almost 2x the total size of the pot. A better move might of been bet just pot and see what he does. More than likely he pushes and you have to call, so you end up in the same position.

I'm not one to tell people how to play poker, but in my opinion (and this is based on the few hands you have posted) you might want to tighten up your game a bit. You seem to be willing to call raises preflop with hands that don't warrant the calls you are making. If you would like to discuss how to go about this, feel free to send me a private message. I'm more than willing to help.

1 - fold that preflop, or limp if you HAVE to play it
2 - IF you flop this, in no way are you normally ahead, even AQ is pretty much 50/50 with you (well it isnt, but its close-ish)
3 - From what ive seen ia gree with ffcowboy (as i seem to be doing alot)



However, unlike him, i am one to tell you how to play poker, and i dont care if it gets me hated. Please take a bit of time on this forum, and read some of the threads ive started in the general poker section, a couple may be of some use. Also check out any hand analysis threads.... Some good stuff by a number of people dotted around i the gerneal poker chat section.


And the flop bad is mad! Id lead for 80% of the pot here, and youd still call a push with your hand, TP avg Kicker, plus 2nd nut draw. Problem is, your also behind alot and i mean ALOT of hands.

Meh my thoughts anyways

(Def agree with FF on the tighten up thing)

thanks for the feedback guys...im just ay oung gun who likes ot see a lot of flops and play alot of different hands!

i had fold long tim e agow

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Originally Posted by $o$o$ucce$$ful

thanks for the feedback guys...im just ay oung gun who likes ot see a lot of flops and play alot of different hands!

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All fine, if your playing for fun.

If you want to win, and win consistantly at tourneys, then your game needs tightening up. If you commit 12% of your chips with JT from early position.... its not good!!! Wait for mroe premium hands to raise with, and try and see cheap flops with mid connectors

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Originally Posted by eejit101

All fine, if your playing for fun.

If you want to win, and win consistantly at tourneys, then your game needs tightening up. If you commit 12% of your chips with JT from early position.... its not good!!! Wait for mroe premium hands to raise with, and try and see cheap flops with mid connectors

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No i definately take poker very very seriously. I want to become a pro and appreciate your guys help...This will all make me a better player in tthe end.

This is one time that I will disagree with eejit and ffcowboy on a hand analysis. If the table is playing tight, this is a solid opportunity for a raise. Note that the key word there is IF. If you have no idea then you have no business raising to steal or take it down with a continuation bet. If the table is playing loose then it's a horrible idea, as your hand doesn't stand up to resistance, and you'll need to fold to even someone who'll reraise you extremely light.

This is where the table being tight is important. Once you get reraised you need to insta-fold, because if the table is playing tight enough for you to make that raise profitably, that means they have a big hand you need to get outta there as fast as you can.

I'm not a huge fan of being in this pot in the first place. In that position there are still way too many people to act. When you did hit a flop like that you are still behind against a lot of hands. Pushing after the flop is tough here because there are still other players to act, even with your top pair and straight draw. It also looks like it was earlier enough in the tournament where you had time to wait for a better spot to be all in.

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Originally Posted by $o$o$ucce$$ful

..im just ay oung gun who likes ot see a lot of flops and play alot of different hands!

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There is a really big problem with that attitude. If you take that attitude into a game you might as well burn your buy in, instead of playing poker. All you will end up doing is giving your buy in away 90+% of the time. I understand that the loose players get lucky once in a while and flop monsters, but majority of the time you will end up with second or third best hand. If I could find a place to post my stats, I would. I'm currently up over $300 on the cash tables since 11/29/08 while playing nothing higher than 25c/50c NL. I play an extremely tight game, which is really boring, but results in profitable conditions when I enter a hand. Believe me, most people playing the lower limits are very observant. I've gotten more folds out of respect to my tightness than I can count on both hands. I've had people type "Folded JQsuited because I know you have a big hand." The next part is that I get even more folds with a continuation bet on the flop. If alot of people on here knew my starting hand standard they would call me "massive" tight. I play about somewhere around 25 starting hands of the 169 that are out there. When I started working to tighten my game up I played only 19 hands. I played them a very certain way, with no regard for position. The system was made to disregard position.

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Originally Posted by ffcowboy76

There is a really big problem with that attitude. If you take that attitude into a game you might as well burn your buy in, instead of playing poker. All you will end up doing is giving your buy in away 90+% of the time. I understand that the loose players get lucky once in a while and flop monsters, but majority of the time you will end up with second or third best hand. If I could find a place to post my stats, I would. I'm currently up over $300 on the cash tables since 11/29/08 while playing nothing higher than 25c/50c NL. I play an extremely tight game, which is really boring, but results in profitable conditions when I enter a hand. Believe me, most people playing the lower limits are very observant. I've gotten more folds out of respect to my tightness than I can count on both hands. I've had people type "Folded JQsuited because I know you have a big hand." The next part is that I get even more folds with a continuation bet on the flop. If alot of people on here knew my starting hand standard they would call me "massive" tight. I play about somewhere around 25 starting hands of the 169 that are out there. When I started working to tighten my game up I played only 19 hands. I played them a very certain way, with no regard for position. The system was made to disregard position.

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Thanks so much...youve been alot of help and your becoming my favorite member.

next time someone four-bets your preflop raise, please auto-muck JT, it really is a weak hand...you did hit the board very hard, but you were still only slightly worse than racing at the flop...flops like that are never kind unless you are holding suited over cards, like kq or ak and your opponent doesnt reraise you with a monster preflop...goodluck and use this as a lesson on your way to the top buddy! ;)

shocked you got your money in that way. j10 is really a weak hand to be raising with in early position especially in a 25 cent tournament. there will be plenty of people that call. if you are trying to take the blinds you are in the wrong tourney. hard to take blinds with people willing to gamble that much. plus i assume that you can outplay 90% of the people in a 25 cent game so why would you raise. just limp and trap with that kind of hand(having top pair with j kicker isnt necessarily a rereaise allin hand). j10 top pair with a str draw is a great hand to see cards with not to get all ur money in with. chances are that if you get the money in on the flop you have a few outs or you are drawing dead. seems like you overplayed that hand to the max...but in all honesty we dont know how the people had been playing before hand, player tendencies are probably one of the if not the best ways of knowing how strong you are compared to the other person. in all likelihood though reraise preflop means muck the j10. 4x raise preflop just to steal blinds is a steep bet too. try out 2.5/3.0 raise of bb its much more effective. 4x you only get those people that can beat you in the pot. 2.5/3.0 will usually weed out the tight players, as for the loose ones well...10x 20x might not get them out. they serve their purpose in crossing their fingers and hoping for the best...at the expense of you most of the time. because they are the ones that steal your chips and then throw them away on the next hand and you are just left their shaking your head.

here are the stats via Cardplayer.com...
on the flop, you were behine 52.93% to 44.65%
not looking too bad, but dont wanna get your money in here...
the turn, behind 70.45% to 29.55%...still not in terrible shape, but why push...try and see another card and then you can let it go and atleast put him on a K...

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Originally Posted by kingsnthahole

next time someone four-bets your preflop raise, please auto-muck JT, it really is a weak hand...you did hit the board very hard, but you were still only slightly worse than racing at the flop...flops like that are never kind unless you are holding suited over cards, like kq or ak and your opponent doesnt reraise you with a monster preflop...goodluck and use this as a lesson on your way to the top buddy! ;)

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Thanks alot man. I really appreciate the encouragement:)

You have to like this flop...it may not be an all in flop but u just floped top pair a descent kicker and a redraw to the straight....i had a hand like this the other night at a cash game eccept i had 9 10 flop 9 76 guy bet 19 with AA i called and turned the 8 went all in for my measly 10 and th AA folded but another guy callled....i know he had AA cuz he was my best friend lol well gl at the tables