Apparently profit sharing = collusion

[TerpZone]

Me and targetguy just got slammed for profit sharing being construed as collusion on Full Tilt.

Awesome.


Hello Richard,

This email is to inform you that we have completed our investigation into your account.

Our Investigations team has determined that you have been involved in collusion with player booger7756. You have violated our site rules, and your Full Tilt Poker account has been permanently closed.

All funds in your account have been forfeited and will be distributed to the affected players as compensation.

Please note that you are not permitted to create another account at Full Tilt Poker. If you attempt to do so, the account will be closed and any associated funds will also be forfeited.


Regards,

Chris
Security
Full Tilt Poker

Few hundred bucks wasted thanks to something that is, AFAIK, legal. Looks like I just became a PokerStars player.

[TerpZone]

What? I've been a dedicated player on FTP for years and have never
colluded. While yes, I have played games with booger7756, there has
never been any collusion-- we have had deals in which we split profit,
but there has never been any collusion or sharing of hands, and the
accusation is ludicrous. This is the first I'm hearing of this,
despite not even having player with this person for many months--- let
alone ever for any amounts even near what the account balance/rewards
were valued at.

Quite frankly, I'm disappointed that FTP could come to such an
inaccurate conclusion; as far as I was aware, playing with specific
players is not against the rules if hands aren't being shared. Which
has never, and will never on any future sites I continue playing on,
been the case.

Hello Richard,

Thank you for your response.

We have reviewed your case and have concluded that the original decision to exclude you from the site will stand.

You were found guilty of collusion. We provided evidentiary hand analysis of same and we now consider this case closed. We would like to reiterate that you should not attempt to play on Full Tilt Poker in the future on a new or existing account. If you are found playing on the site again, the account will be suspended and all remaining funds will be forfeited.

We are sorry but no further correspondence will be entered into.

Regards,

Robert
Security
Full Tilt Poker

[PANAMHIEST]

The provided evidence to whom, you? If so is is exploitable? I personally do not think LL bets or profit sharing is any way considered collusion and this is perty effed up dude.

[NDN]

Wow, what the hell?

Shoot me a private message with the details...

[Ringo]

I am going to keep a careful eye on you 2 from now on.:smash:

[Ringo]

Seriously though
This is quite alarming because anyone that plays in a LL game is considered colluding with other players and can get their account
closed and lose all their money.
My question is, Can Full Tilt use posts on our forum as evidence of colluding?
If so, we can all be in big trouble someday.
Another reason why I only keep the min. bankroll on these poker sites.
They can steal your money anytime they want and you have no legal recourse what so ever.
I will support a FT boycott, just give the word.

[TerpZone]

They can steal your money anytime they want and you have no legal recourse what so ever.
I will support a FT boycott, just give the word.

My account was worth more than they will ever payout in 'compensation.'

So basically FTP gets free money. (granted less than I pay in rake every week)

[eejit101]

holy crap.

Im now worried!

[nodepositneeded]

Here is my take as a player who has deposited $25,000 in Full tilt this year.If 9 guys are playing at a table and 3 are going to share their money at the end of the game they may play a bit differently than the guy who is on his own.Also Full Tilt may think if you are sharing your money and know each other so well you may be sharing what cards you have.
Full Tilt has obviously made their position clear so I would not encourage you guys to be posting your ids or your plans to play games in public.Too bad that a couple of our regulars lost their FT account :(
I can ask John to full the security file and give us some feedback but for that I will need written consent from both players AND ANY LINKS where you guys have posted to set up the game ,chat etc .

Tracy

[eejit101]

What if they were stakes? Cant you claim that?

[Ringo]

Here is my take as a player who has deposited $25,000 in Full tilt this year.If 9 guys are playing at a table and 3 are going to share their money at the end of the game they may play a bit differently than the guy who is on his own.Also Full Tilt may think if you are sharing your money and know each other so well you may be sharing what cards you have.
Full Tilt has obviously made their position clear so I would not encourage you guys to be posting your ids or your plans to play games in public.Too bad that a couple of our regulars lost their FT account :(
I can ask John to full the security file and give us some feedback but for that I will need written consent from both players AND ANY LINKS where you guys have posted to set up the game ,chat etc .

Tracy


Do we have anything to worry about at other poker rooms too?

[targetguy1]

this is news to me. guess i better check my email. with out getting all the details i find this total BS as we are small stakes players who never tried to cheat to make profit nor where we trying to get rich overnight. To bad we werent a pro there cuz all they would do is take a red status away fro ma few months and slap us on the wrist. oh well looks like when i come back i will go to merge or cake.

FTP can suck a fat one.

[targetguy1]

Here is my take as a player who has deposited $25,000 in Full tilt this year.If 9 guys are playing at a table and 3 are going to share their money at the end of the game they may play a bit differently than the guy who is on his own.Also Full Tilt may think if you are sharing your money and know each other so well you may be sharing what cards you have.
Full Tilt has obviously made their position clear so I would not encourage you guys to be posting your ids or your plans to play games in public.Too bad that a couple of our regulars lost their FT account :(
I can ask John to full the security file and give us some feedback but for that I will need written consent from both players AND ANY LINKS where you guys have posted to set up the game ,chat etc .

Tracy

speaking for myself i dont see the point as if i was to get my account back i would refuse to play there like i refuse to play at ap/ub after the cheating going on there.

[targetguy1]

got the same email from terp but the didnt send me any hand history's i requested. so not sure what to think about it.

would think a good business practice would to send the proof of cheating to the banned members when u email them to inform them they were banned.

this is other reason i wish the US would pass online poker so the players have protection against these poker rooms. how can u just take someones money and close their account with out giving them the proof?

[TerpZone]

Here is my take as a player who has deposited $25,000 in Full tilt this year.If 9 guys are playing at a table and 3 are going to share their money at the end of the game they may play a bit differently than the guy who is on his own.Also Full Tilt may think if you are sharing your money and know each other so well you may be sharing what cards you have.
Full Tilt has obviously made their position clear so I would not encourage you guys to be posting your ids or your plans to play games in public.Too bad that a couple of our regulars lost their FT account :(
I can ask John to full the security file and give us some feedback but for that I will need written consent from both players AND ANY LINKS where you guys have posted to set up the game ,chat etc .

Tracy

Profit Sharing is not illegal.

In fact, it's done openly during the WSOP ME every year.

The thing that angers me most is that there is absolutely NO CHANCE that they will EVER pay out the same amount in compensation as my account was valued at.

Eejit also sent me money he had owed me only a couple hours before the banning, too. I'm glad they waited a few extra hours to steal his money as well as mine.

[TerpZone]

got the same email from terp but the didnt send me any hand history's i requested. so not sure what to think about it.


I was offered nothing other than "you were found guilty of an accusation you were never even informed of" too.

[targetguy1]

Seriously though
This is quite alarming because anyone that plays in a LL game is considered colluding with other players and can get their account
closed and lose all their money.
My question is, Can Full Tilt use posts on our forum as evidence of colluding?
If so, we can all be in big trouble someday.
Another reason why I only keep the min. bankroll on these poker sites.
They can steal your money anytime they want and you have no legal recourse what so ever.
I will support a FT boycott, just give the word.

boycott would do much to a site like FTP they have a very large player base and a few us not playing there isnt going to hurt them one bit.

[nodepositneeded]

Have you guys ever logged in as the other?wondering how they connected you.

Tracy

[PANAMHIEST]

A boycott would have to a huge set up planned even from players of all forums likely, and it has to be for a perty good reason too, like when the irish guys?? boycotted at pokerstars for some kinda tax deal.

however I still think that stealing money from 2 players that have played there for years with no trouble, never made any kinda huge big bang get rich scheme, maybe a comfortable extra income here and there, then all the sudden ban them, and one who hasnt played for months, is NOT good business practice. Heck im afraid to say how i really feel about it, just in case they find this post and ban me too.

[PANAMHIEST]

Have you guys ever logged in as the other?wondering how they connected you.

Tracy

my guess is that they were trading funds back and forth splitting profits after a game or few, which could be misconstrued as collusion based on financial aspects of the transactions. But still i have played with each of these guys, did a lil willing and dealing myself, and i know for a fact they dont share cards. We just have sorta a unspoken rule to stay outta each others way.

[targetguy1]

A boycott would have to a huge set up planned even from players of all forums likely, and it has to be for a perty good reason too, like when the irish guys?? boycotted at pokerstars for some kinda tax deal.

however I still think that stealing money from 2 players that have played there for years with no trouble, never made any kinda huge big bang get rich scheme, maybe a comfortable extra income here and there, then all the sudden ban them, and one who hasnt played for months, is NOT good business practice. Heck im afraid to say how i really feel about it, just in case they find this post and ban me too.

thats a neg. i depsoited many times but never cashed out at FTP. i am a losing player there.

[targetguy1]

Have you guys ever logged in as the other?wondering how they connected you.

Tracy

nope...we transfered to each other just as i have with many people here over and over again. i even played many game with people from here.

[NDN]

On the surface this seems pretty bogus to me. And since I know the both of you, I doubt it goes any deeper than the surface.

I've played games with just about every poker playing member on here (many of which I play with regularly) and I won't stop doing so EVER.

Hell, the only reason I play online poker these days is to play games with my old pals on here. You won't catch me in many games without a friend who's playing the same one. So poker rooms can allow that and benefit from my continued play, or they can ban people for no reason and lose a lot of business, while tarnishing their reputation in the process.

Playing with friends online is no different than playing with friends offline. Offline, you learn to respect players and stay out of their way, and the same goes for online. This isn't cheating, it's just smart poker.

When you walk into a local poker room, you see the same faces over and over again, people become familiar with other players, and they adjust their game accordingly.

Poker is an extremely social game that is far more enjoyable with a familiar face or two at the tables!

[kingsnthahole]

online poker=you giving your money to a site to hold for you, while you slowly lose it all...and if you dont, this type of thing happens. Which is why i cant say this enough-Don't trust ANY poker sites....ANY! Once they have your money, they can do whatever they want with it.

[kingsnthahole]

I would also ask them for the hand history in which they have proof of you colluding...if the hands look shady, then you're probably screwed, but if you have a viable explanation for these hands, then tell them what you were thinking while making the play. If they give you the BS response they gave you the second time with no out, ask to speak personally with a manager, eg phone or live chat. Everyone gets scared when you ask for a manager.

[PANAMHIEST]

ya i agree with kings on that if you want your account back or at least your money, then get ahold of some higher authority, preferably by phone, and if they even hint at giving ya crap, unleash the fury.

[nodepositneeded]

Aunt Judy sent this link to John who sets up all our tournaments , all we can ask is a fresh set of eyes from Full Tilt look at it.Hopefully they will see the players have been members of this forum for years and may explain away some issues.John has been good to us so regardless of this outcome we will still be hosting Full Tilt Tournaments starting next week :)

Tracy

[targetguy1]

i finally got a couple hands from FTP and i must admit they do look shady but they can be explained very easy. one hand i timed out when i flop 2 pair, but if u look at any of my poker account i have timed out many times with good hand due to the fact i have 2 kids and **** happen i leave the computer. i can many time i folded AA preflop due to a time out. one hand i folded ak preflop 3 handed when terp shoved from the BB. it was a matrix game and i am almost certain i folded because i was not willin to risk my slim chip lead on a coinflip and finish 3rd and lose out on the matrix prize pool on a race as i put him on a PP. last time i checked a 3rd in a match and 3rd overall in the matrix doesnt pay as much as a 1st in a match and 1 or 2nd overall. i remember in a private game here when NDN 1 was the owner and i timed out heads up a few hands due to kids. if u look at the overall hand history u would see we were both are not shy to take each other out even if it was the bubble or first hand of the game.

overall most games we played together we lost money and didnt make make any money. we played games like this for months until i left for vegas and quit playing poker for the time being. if we were trying to cheat dont u think after the first week or even month of losing money we would stop. like NDN 1 said poker is a social game played with friends. its more comfortable playing with people u know and know that are real players. with so many different things out there and seeing some of the sick beats online it gives confront to know ur play with a real person.


i could honestly care less if full tilt gives us are accounts back as i am done with them. they have double standards there. if i recall last year one of the red pro's got his red pro status taken away for a few months for violation of T&C. If this is some normal joe that is a nobody and doesnt creates that much rake u just get ****ted on by them. all i would like to see is rich get him money back from them as it was his money and that money didnt come from these games as i said before we lost way more money then we have when we played in the same games.

[GloBug]

well i find this all to funny. i had a feeling that something would happen to u 2 as you guys play together way to much. i dont think u were colluding but to them it makes sense by the transactions and the hands. kinda sucks it happened but like twerp said he will be at stars now.

[PANAMHIEST]

I dont think think there is anything wrong with folding a good hand out of respect to a friend. Who wants to knocked their friends out? Now when we have our private games ya we are after each other like wild dogs, but thats what those are for, crazy competition amongst friends. When your playing against a table full of who evers and you run across a friend your not gonna try and take the friend out your gonna try and get everyone else. So if it is fulltilts policy that you cant have a poker crew or friends, that will do LL, profit sharing and loans/staking well then... that isnt cool at all.

[klinkman]

I dont think think there is anything wrong with folding a good hand out of respect to a friend. Who wants to knocked their friends out? Now when we have our private games ya we are after each other like wild dogs, but thats what those are for, crazy competition amongst friends. When your playing against a table full of who evers and you run across a friend your not gonna try and take the friend out your gonna try and get everyone else. So if it is fulltilts policy that you cant have a poker crew or friends, that will do LL, profit sharing and loans/staking well then... that isnt cool at all.
And unwittingly, you have clearly revealed the problem the site has. Softplaying, where you don't play your friends as hard as you do the others at the table, is a form of collusion and is prohibited by the terms of service at all major sites. When you play lots of games with someone, and you transfer funds back and forth to one another when one makes a score in a tournament, and then you make a questionable fold to your friend in the end stage of a sit and go, alarm bells trigger!

Now, one hand does not a compelling case make. And I clearly believe that they weren't even planning to softplay each other, Targetguy just made a bad fold and timed out once. I can't imagine a timed out hand proving anything, especially with someone who has a tendency to time out randomly, due to interruptions, bad connection, etc. The AK hand looks incriminating, as any resonably competent player would tell you that AK is well ahead of even the tightest player's shoving range 3 handed in the endgame of a sit n go, and therefore should be an instant call, even with the matrix pool dynamic in play. But I've misclick folded in similar instances as I'm sure everyone has, and therefore much more of a case needs to be built before banning someone and confiscating their funds.

Targetguy told me that there were many times where they busted each other on the bubble. Indeed if there are, those would seem to exonerate them, even in the eyes of site. When 2 people clash on the bubble of a sit n go, much of their combined equity goes to the other players at the table. Two colluding players would avoid clashing at all costs, which is what I'm sure the AK hand looks like.

[TerpZone]

So if it is fulltilts policy that you cant have a poker crew or friends, that will do LL, profit sharing and loans/staking well then... that isnt cool at all.

This is all allowed in the WSOP tour. I can't see how it wouldn't be allowed online.

[TerpZone]

lmao...stay classy, FTP:


Affiliate Username: Rakebackpros
Player ID: RichMa
Date and Time: 2010-09-03 13:06:29
Transfer Number: A2PC727EFEAF
Amount: $14.41 USD

Status: APPROVED

This affiliate transfer has been approved. The funds transferred are
now available in your account.

Thank you for partnering with Full Tilt Poker

[targetguy1]

lmao...stay classy, FTP:

what a slap in the face that it. yeah we closed ur account and took ur money and by the way today we approved ur rakeback for the past week. what a joke

[TerpZone]

lol we approved a transfer so we could steal someone else's money, too!

[targetguy1]

its not much but it sad when a affiliate loses out on the money also. dont understand why FTP would transfer affiliate money to a banned account.

[nodepositneeded]

I am bumping the poker threads to get the attention of our old poker league ,if you guys are still around and want to play homegames , please come back and make your presence known :)

NDN

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